"Were Spartans homosexual?" Topic

I read that the laws of Lycurgus forbade homosexual reationships.

Also apparently the translation "Lovers" can mean both a sexual and platonic relationship.

Is there any concrete evidence to support institutional Spartan homosexuality?

Well, they can't all have been, and does it matter anyway?

"they can't all have been"

'Is there any concrete evidence to support institutional Spartan homosexuality?'
No.

"Platonic relationships" are apologies for homosexuality, in the truest sense of the word (philosophy-wise, of course).

As with many other Greek city-states, homosexuality was not frowned upon and, in some cases, was considered as the only "true" love, as it was one "shared by equal beings"--we need to remember that women were considered inferior in many ways due to the abject reasoning of the male thinkers.

As far as hard evidence goes, the answer has been already posted, but it was a common practice nonetheless.

Here we go, Spartans and their bums again.

Seriously, who'd want to boink some guy who never bathed and wore the same ratty clothes until they fell apart.

Lycurgos (IIRC) essentially forbade any relationship that did not produce children for the war machine. Spartan lads served 'under' older men whilst training for war. How closely remains open for interpetation.

I also recall that the phrase 'arse-spartan' was a common pejorative in Greece in the classical period. I'll try to find my source on that.

Abba were massive in Sparta.

and the Boystown Gang

Its like asking are New Yorkers gay?

Bruce Ruxton (the ex- rsl president) recently said: "In 1914 there were no s in the trenches. If there were, the men would have been right on to it…"

Is there any concrete evidence to support institutional Spartan homosexuality?

I don't know…..
I heard from a lady who had it on good authority that someone in Hoboken once read a thesis in which they proved
beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Spartans probably had at least three homosexuals in their ranks.

Names, of course, were not disclosed for fear of Athenian intervention. (We all know how THEY are !)

It is a valid academic question.

Man-loving ways were widely accepted in antiquity prior to the influence of PXianity.

I am an unabashed heterosexual philhellene and find this a valid topic of debate

Did they all live together in barracks away from the women much of the time?

Put men together without women and it pretty much just happens spontaneously, whether the folks consider themselves gay or not. Prisons, the Navy, isolated outposts on Pacific Islands (as in "The Thin Red Line"), wargame conventions…

Polynikes, you're just angling to be the one guy in your gaming group who doesn't have to share a rack at the next convention aren't you

I'm picturing a Hoplite with a big 'tache and leather chaps…

"Man-loving ways"…..

Village people was not my wavelength Mr&Mrs

I am starting to think the Greek homosexual stereotype is a Rep Roman smear job.

In the Spartans
Yes, You can march right on through Thebes
In the Spartans
Yes,You can put your Mind at Ease
In the Spartans
Come on now, people, make a stand
In the Spartans, in the Spartans
Can't you see we need a hand
in the Spartans
Come on to Thermopulae-land

Argh that was supposed to be "Thermopylae-land"

I was obviously confused while channeling the Village people…

"Did they all live together in barracks away from the women much of the time?"

Aren't all the Exterminators male, also? And they wear red, just like the Spartans.

tinyurl.com/y9wc7j

Whoa…

Allen

"Put men together without women and it pretty much just happens spontaneously, whether the folks consider themselves gay or not. Prisons, the Navy, isolated outposts on Pacific Islands (as in "The Thin Red Line"), wargame conventions…"

What happens at Historicon, stays at Historicon. (Or Salute, or GenCon, or…)

On top ain't gay in the Joint.

Nor at BIFROST, neither.

Our modern concept of homosexuality, and the connotations it has, would presumably be alien to the ancient Greeks. Our own understanding of it has been shaped by 2000 years of Christianity, among other things.

So, the answer is yes and no, I guess.

Btw, the "it was just platonic!" argument has been made by many historians and classical philologists who somehow cannot get used to the thought that their beloved Hellenes might have been "gay" (get over it already!).

In any case, it is always a good idea not to only look at ancient societies through the lens of our modern value systems.

"On top ain't gay in the Joint."

One of many "con" lies. Top, bottom or side, sexual relations with same sex is homosexual behavior.

Tony Soprano told his hrink that in the joint you are given a pass on that. Not that he ever…

Elrond, it fdoesn;t really matter what YOU think about it. It's what THEY think that matters. If it bothers you, stay out of the joint.

This topic keeps coming up, which surprises me as info on the topic is in most good Greek History textbooks.

Man-on-Man action was unacceptable in the ancient world, and was despised by the majority of Greeks. A man who wanted sex with another man was considered no man at all.

What the greeks considered acceptable, evem admirable (and it was culture specific – the Spartans and Cretans were most in favour, others less so) was what we would consider FAR WORSE – ie pederasty – man-boy.

There is a record of a speech in the athenian assembly in which one man is slagged off as the sort of guy who doesn't even pay his rent boy. The rent boy is not the issue – but he doesn't PAY him!

Lastly, a lot of the more extreme claims about Spartan sexuality were written by a much later, anti-spartan source. The same source also claimed it was normal for Spartans to (won't write this word its nasty) young girls too. Much of this sort of writing gives me a suspicion maybe the whole idea the greeks were homosexually obsessed is just each Polis slagging off the other. But there is enough written evidence that certainly implies it was common.

But Homosexual? No, they weren't that.

Pat

"…it fdoesn;t really matter what YOU think about it. It's what THEY think that matters."

By this logic, people who blow themselves, and innocents, up in pursuit of martyrdom, Paradise and virgins are acting morally because THEY believe it to be so? Sorry OFM, you lost me on this one (as well as your recent post that you hadn't noticed gamer funk at a convention). You must be slipping (or the funk is getting to you). :)

Gray Bear, after what you just wrote, you have no business accusing anyone else of screwball logic.

people who blow themselves? geesh!

rddfxx – Admittedly poor word order but please finish the sentence and get your mind out of the gutter!

"Gray Bear, after what you just wrote, you have no business accusing anyone else of screwball logic."

This from someone who could not recall smelling gamer funk at a con who dubs himself "Old Fart Meister." The irony is rich.

I think the point here is to systematically break down the etymology of the word Spartan.
Spar- to mock fight, to gain great strength through training and practice.
Tan- to be darkened to a manly hue by honorable outdoors work in the sun.

Spar-Tan: Couldn't be more manly. The very word makes Spartans better, more manly men, than men of today. Oiled up young virile men with braided oiled locks of long hair grappling and wrestling each other's manly tanned naked bodies rolling on the floor with a crowd of flabby Ephors whistling and hooting.. why it's something any Congresman or Hillbilly Preacher would drive miles to see.

We can only look to our modern lack of testosterone being breeded out of us today by fast food, secular progressiveism, and because of NOW, we are the total antithesis of Spartandom.

Linguists have proven also that Spar has been associated originally with "spurn".. of course meaning the "Spurn-Tans" were in effect named for Spurning physical contact with Tannned manly men" (other than wrestling)… over time Spurn-Tans became slurred and comes down to us as Spar-Tans. Of course there is also the "Black-and-Tans" which will spark yet another inmate-on-top controversy.

Oh, uh, Lakedaimonians kai 'Ellenes, uh oh.. nevermind.

I think it is in one of Euripides' plays where the Spartan soldiers lament that the heaviest cost of war is the substitution of men for the company of women, you do the math.
JeffJ

Were the Spartans gay? Of course not! They were perfectly normal bisexuals. :-)

Now what about Spartacus? :-)

Guy

Does it matter? Whether or not we place our own 21st centuries 'morality' on civilizations that existed over 2000 years ago, shows more about us than them. I've no doubt the spartans and the rest of the ancient world would have much to say about us!

Paul

What does it mean when someone says "greek" in pornoland? I don't think it has anything to do with a salad or a rice dish.

Now were they gay or oppurtunistic, thats something else.

alas I am told by my ''Greek '' friend that the word Greek is an insult to many of them as its a name given to them by the Turks . Of course real Greeks are from Hellas and call themselves Hellenes .

Maybe it was the Turks who invented the ''Greek'' style – I guess Lawrence of Arabia would go with that one ..

Again a Donor kebab cames from Turkey and not Greece ….

The English word "Greek" derives from Latin. The Turks didn't invent it.

<H4> JJartist 03 Nov 2006 10:45 p.m. PST wrote:
I think the point here is to systematically break down the etymology …
Spar- to mock fight, to gain great strength through training and practice.
Tan- to be darkened to a manly hue by honorable outdoors work in the sun… ,/h4>

So gay bodybuilder loops of the 1950s and 60s are manly!

Sorry Jeff I just could not resist. There are too many openings in this entire thread! Now how to I paint gay Spartans….

VR
James Mattes

I do know if you are playing WAB and taunt your opponent, who is using a Greek army, with homophobic taunts your dice rolls will be higher!
VR
James Mattes

I'm still waiting for someone to sculpt good front- and rear-rank hoplites in active poses. Most rear-rank figures are simply too passive.

Allen

Were Spartans gay? Do Pintos explode?

"What the greeks considered acceptable"

My understanding is both the Greeks and the Romans went through stages, a millennium is a long time, in which first what we would call pederasty was acceptable then later, peer relationships. Unlike the modern conception it was not considered important whether a man liked boys, women or other men what mattered was what role he played in the encounter. The Romans in particular were ultra-macho, it didn't matter that Trajan had a herd of catamites and no interest in women but when Elagabalus dressed in women's clothes and offered himself to his guards there was a scandal.

The important thing to understand is these people were not like us and did not have a view of the world like ours.

You know the whole Greek Honosexuality thing is way too big an issue. As far as I have read it wasn't abnormal back then. In fact, labelling them "gay" or "homosexual" is a technical issue at best.

I remember getting in an arguement with a gay friend who thought it was so great that Alexander the Great was gay. To this Ihad to reply, "He wasn't gay." This started a huge arguement to which I had to explain that Greeks seem to have practiced a pretty open sexuality that didn't have the conventional limits and asigning modern labels really was appropriate.

Mr. Curtis, all humor aside, it would be nice if somebody sculpted some greek hoplites for the rear ranks that were actually doing their job.

"wasn't appropriate"

Don't type before first cup of coffee.

"Marriage" meant then what it "still" means today. Man and woman begetting children, i.e. forming society and strengthening the nation.

Same-sex relations were completely extra-marital. And as long as a man did his duty and had a family the rest was pretty well left alone.

It does seem that open, same-sex "friendships" were only considered a benefit to society, if the two men were in all respects brave, loyal and unselfish, i.e. did their duty. In other words, a credit to the society.

Some values, despite modern world differences in how we look at things, have never changed. We get the base of our philosophy from the Greeks, ferpetesakes. We are not that different, as some suggest. We value integrity, loyalty, duty, above just about any other moral values, including sexual morality. I think this outlook was almost over the top extreme, during the Grecco-Roman high water periods. When these nations went down, was when their duty failed to society and too many people had the attitude of serving their own personal wants and desires above that of the whole nation's. Sexuality (as in sexual preferences) had little or nothing to do with decline, ever.

1066.us

So yes, homosexuality was openly condoned. I don't think it was ever more present as "same-sex" attraction then or at any other time or place. Now, bisexual behavior, that probably was a lot more common in Sparta (and elsewhere) than is common today in the West. And that would be natural, since such behavior was not "wrong" per se to the ancients.

"Some values, despite modern world differences in how we look at things, have never changed. We get the base of our philosophy from the Greeks"

I think both an ancient Greek philosopher and a modern student of social history would describe this as a very poor argument. Greek philosophy did not penetrate very deeply into Greek society, perhaps as many ancients were familiar with Plato as are now conversant in the advanced mathematics of modern physics. Saying we are the same as the Greeks because a small part of their culture influenced ours greatly is as absurd as saying we are like Ashanti because our ubiquitous popular music was influenced by African chants.

Because an idea has the same name does not mean it has the same meaning through time. Except when definitions are fixed by some system they rarely do so. Peruse any page of the Oxford English Dictionary.

While they don't differ from us in every way it's safest to assume in any given respect the ancients were not like us unless it can be conclusively demonstrated they were. Ideas like genetics, atomic theory, germs, even an idea like "Man and woman begetting children" was completely different since the ancients believed reproduction was entirely in the male with the female serving only as soil to a seed. The Roman nobility didn't even give their female children individual names but:

"All female children of citizen families were named with the feminine form of the clan into which they were born; hence, all women whose fathers had the nomen Julius were named Julia, and all women whose fathers had the nomen Cornelius were named Cornelia. In public, they would be identified by the possessive form of their father's cognomen (e.g., Julia Caesaris, "Julia, the daughter of Caesar"), or if married by the possessive form of their husband's cognomen (e.g., Clodia Metelli, "Clodia, the wife of Metellus"). If families had more than one daughter, they were distinguished by the words maior and minor ("elder" and "younger"), or prima, secunda, tertia, etc."

"Mr. Curtis, all humor aside, it would be nice if somebody sculpted some greek hoplites for the rear ranks that were actually doing their job."

That was indeed my point. I cannot be held responsible for any humor others gain from it.

Allen

May I start the "Were Thebans homosexual?" topic now?

Ralph (who wishes someone would sculpt Sacred Band hoplites where the rear ranks were also doing their job)