"Rosters and Basing by Casting" Topic

Hello

I am a little reluctant to post. I am afraid this might be on one hand a "here we go again," and a little bit too small a question to be worth a thread. But It is worth it enough here I am.

To my credit I have been researching the history longer than playing rules. Although to most of you not long, about two years. It is a little bit catch 22. Want to understand enough to make decent decisions, but also there is an element of just have to get the feet wet. Played some mock games, at least one with about a dozen.

I have gone through what I think are the slightly more modern and "gamey" rules sets. Just shy of going through Extracrispy's entire list, any time I see rules suggested I dive deeper. So far I enjoy what I am reading in Shako 2 and GdA for a more gamey (in a good way) and afternoon experience.

On the other hand I recently started looking at older rules sets, and those which are more simulation based. From Valmy to Waterloo in the mix of those came to my desk, and I am really in love. I love the artillery system, I love the detail although it seems more flavorful and easy to work with than other rules.

The only issue is the game is one of those base by casting. So far my plan is 32 10mm figures over 4 bases, 4x2 for french, and 6x2 for Austrians, same footprint. Get a little Austrian mob feel in there, but the footprint works for all of these more modern games, as well as having a decent 1:20 although that does not matter too much.

The issue is VtWs figure counts. 8 10mm figures on 4 bases? I prefer bigger look and that is chillingly fiddly. I have seen suggestions for 15s 2x1 and sabots. Not against that really, but even more fiddly at 10, not to mention 8-12 10mm figures is just not exciting to me.

So I was wondering, why could I not simply use this basing as is, and make new rosters with checkboxes instead of casualty by figures? I need to make rosters for reference anyway (side note I absolutely love the format of the little rosters in the scenario book). For a bat that would be 12 figures in VtW, I could format it as

UUU UUU UUU UUU

I could adjust the ground scale to what ends up being about 2/3 of one of these in line is 100 yards (80mm). Will make custom measuring sticks anyway.

Firing is equal to casting same as casualties are.

Obviously I lose out on different frontages. I do enjoy that but doesn't seem to work as well with Shako type rules.

As an aside, I have been all over TMP the past couple years. Looking back it is suddenly hitting me the conversations of counters versus roster. Maybe this is what they are talking about, and converting rules sets, not rules sets that use rosters so much. Granted I have not been over every rules set out there yet.

Any reason I am wrong, or big problems that I need to be aware of? I am sure some people have tried it with Empire, just never seen it talked about. I do think I would love Empire, but the basing seems even more specialized than VtW.

Anyway, thanks for reading and any advice.

I do not play that system but what I do play has a 1:50/60 troop ratio.

My warning is just a caution about changing scales.
If you change the ground scale to 1 inch equals 100 yards, consider how you affect other factors. For example musket fire of that era was not effective at 100 yards. So your musket fire would be less than an inch. If that works for you ok.

Thanks for the reply.

Well the nice thing about VtW, is absolutely everything is in yards. Which I actually prefer, because you just make a new "yardstick" out of notched dowel and off you go.

Musket is effective to 100 yards, falling off hard up to 250 to almost useless. That is in some places I read accurate, in others as you mention, too far. Sometimes I wonder if it is game and scale balance.

But 100 yards would be 80mm (little over 3 inches). Which isnt terrible for play.

Will probably take some tweaking, but at least it isn't like ESR, which I do love so far, but they printed all their stuff with inches but instructions in the front how to change ground scale.

PS. 80mm/100 yards comes from the 120mm width of battalion in line. From what I understand of the rough widths of lines.

If you're using yards and bespoke measuring sticks, why not use actual casualties rather than figures? If using a 20-man figure scale simply roll a d20 for remainders as your random element on a deterministic casualty rate.
For scaling footprints and casualty rates why not get a copy of Von Reisswitz's Kriegsspiel, if it was good enough for the Prussian army to Wargame with it should be good enough for hobby gamers.

I persist in thinking the best solutions are either figure removal or stand removal, but I'll admit it's a matter of taste. That said, surely anything using markers is adaptable to using rosters, or the reverse? (And "one figure" in the rules could be "one base of smaller figures" in play.)

But your preference seems to be the same number of figures, but smaller figures. In this case, I'd use three colors of tiny markers rather than a roster. Green is one casualty, yellow is two and red is three. When you take the fourth casualty, remove the stand. No paper, and no need to remember that THESE stands are the 1/105th, and THOSE are 3/33rd.

I am not really against anything in particular. Except maybe dinky battalions, and diluting the basing system further. I have had nights of seriously considering changing my basing, because I know I like these rules, but there comes a point when diluting for one additional squared peg is diminishing returns. The basing I have works very well for every other system. It is also closest to realistic footprints in all formations, almost to the yard, ignoring depth in line and closed which is not solvable with miniatures outside 1:1 anyway.

I could always just add a base each of Grenadiers and Voltigeurs only for this game, but see above and that is a very big line for a less tasteful ground scale to me. Plus, that screws with allies, suddenly making them under strength. Part of the conundrum is I was considering adding 2x2 of G and V on each end (replacing line models, not adding bases, for looks only) of these 4 bases. It is all a pretzel.

But that is a good idea. Now that you mention it, only the Austrians would even need more than one marker. A glass bead or cotton smoke on a base is always better than a die in my opinion.

If I think of it in those terms, really I could just treat each 2x2 along the line as one figure. This would make all unit strengths pretty uniform (8 for allies 12 for Austrian), but ease play. I will just have to play with that, and if it doesn't work then simply note each stand strength in roster in a new column. In this case the ease of play seems better than additional character, but can test it. At least that is something to run with.

Thanks for the help.

I have been playing and enjoying the new Emperor of the Battlefield rules. Mainly with two or four players in an evening game.

The rules cater for your basing in a simple way. Measure the width of your standard sized infantry battalion in line. Half that is one Measurement Unit (MU or just u). No conversion tables required. I have measuring sticks made from 40mm spacers that work well. For my friends 28mm collection we marked up lengths of 8mm square dowel. Nine of us played that day each controlling a small Corps of about 24 units. A great looking game with a conclusive victory enjoyed by all.

I have played using 28mm units with four 40x40mm infantry stands and with 15mm units with two or four stands. A large unit is 50% bigger. Cavalry units represent a couple of squadrons or a small campaign weary regiment. It does look better if your artillery batteries have teams too. Especially when on roads.

You need an ORBAT detailing the Divisions within your Corps and how effective is each general staff. There is an interesting build up for encounter games. I have taken part in three historical battle refights as well. The system works without bogging down.

I prefer big battles with lots of units so I am happy to move away from casualty removal. Battered units take a Waver or a Flinch marker (dead figures or a pompom).

Emperor of the Battlefield works for me.