"Kavalleriegeschützbatterien" Topic

Bonjour

L'artillerie à pied autrichienne en 1809 possédait des tambours.

url=https://www.photorapide.com/photos/1799547/0angqc.jpg]

Mais pour l'artillerie à cheval (wurst)?
Un trompette?
Merci pour vos réponses.

Bernard

En principe oui. Le même uniforme mais portant une trompette de cavalerie et non un tambour.

My understanding is that the Feldartillerie-Regimenters provided all the artillerists whether Position, Brigade or Kavallerie Batterien. There was no separate Foot or Horse Artillery as in other armies and all musicians were the same i.e. drummers (tambours).

Rawkins gives details on the drummers uniforms and does not mention any other musicians (other than a passing reference to an 1811 provision made for 8 ‘Hautboisten', trained woodwind musicians to be added to the regimental staff).

Rawkins also shows the drum hoops painted with alternate red and white diagonal or vertical stripes rather than the black and yellow shown.

Hope that is useful

J'ai découvert un tambour du train (Fuhrwesen)

url=https://www.photorapide.com/photos/1799659/8514q8.jpg]

A priori, ni l'artillerie "wurst", ni le train n'avaient de trompette…

Les deux sont des troupes à cheval. Comment faisaient-ils avec leur tambour?

Bernard

interesting illustration, where did you find it?

All of which reminds me that there is a bit of a gap in most manufacturers' ranges for Austrians – artillery crew walking with the limbered guns, where a drummer would fit in perfectly.

Cheers,
John

@von Winterfeldt
Je l'ai récupérée dans la collection personnelle de feu Monsieur Gilles Boué (spécialiste/écrivain français du Premier Empire).
Je serais incapable de dire où il l'avait trouvée…

From Rawkins the composition of an Artillerieführwesendivision (1808-1814) as follows:
1 Unterleutnant + 1 Horse, 2 Wachtmeister + 2 Horses, 3 Korporalen + 3 Horses, 1 Fourier + 1 Horse, 3 Hufschmied, 1 Sattler, 1 Wagenhersteller / Radhersteller, 1 Trompet + 1 Horse, 63 Gemeiner for each Fuβ-Batterie, 116 Gemeiner for each Kavallerie-Batterie

This on uniform for trumpeter:
"Each Führwesen-Division had a trumpeter who appears to have worn the same style of headwear as the other ranks with the addition of white tape edging to the tricorn hat, Rundenhut, or corsehut. Plumes are generally noted as being scarlet. No other details of the dress distinctions have been found and it may be assumed that the coat, waistcoat and breeches were as for the men, possibly with the addition of facing colour swallows-nest epaulettes at the shoulders. Trumpets were brass with mixed yellow and black cords and tassels. The trumpeter was mounted and was armed with the dragoon pattern sabre."

Super!

Les trompettes "Führwesen" existaient donc!

Rawkins ne dit rien sur des trompettes d'artillerie pour les batteries "wurst"?

No mention of any trumpeters for headcount of the Kavallerie Batterien (no drummers either).

3 drummers listed under the headcount of an Artillerie-Kompagnie (1792-1810).

As I understand it (for 1809) the Batterie personnel were allocated from each Artillerie-Kompagnie on a semi-permanent basis. There is no indication that drummers were allocated to individual Batteries so it is unclear where they would actually be. There is no mention at all of trumpeters.

Merci à tous!

Je verrais bien un tambour d'artillerie assis sur l'affut d'un canon ou sur un caisson d'artillerie associé.

@Bernard1809

The drummers are not mounted, they march on their own two feet as do most of the rest of the foot artillery.

Oui, oui, nous sommes d'accord!

Je parle pour l'artillerie "à cheval" wurst.

No drummers for the mounted artillery.

Ah bon!

Pas de trompette, pas de tambour.

Tous les ordres se faisaient à la voix?

J'ai un doute…

@Bernard1809

Agreed but no evidence as to how. Organisation of a Kavallerie batterien in 1809 is given in Rawkins as:

4 x 6pdr Kannon drawn by 24 horses in total (6 each)
2 x Munitionskarren drawn by 4 horses in total (2 each)
6 x Fouragewagen drawn by 12 horses (2 each)
1 x Offizier de Artillerie
1 x Fourierschutzen
20 x Kannonier 1st Klasse
2 x 7pdr Haibitzen drawn by 8 horses in total (4 each)
1 x Feuerwerkskasten (bomb wagon) drawn by 6 horses
12 x Fuhrwesen packknechte with 12 horses in total
4 x Fuhrwesen unteroffizier
1 x Kaporal der Artillerie
2 x Bombardier
12 x Kannonier 2nd Klasse

Unfortunately the diagrams in "Exercier-Vorschrift mit dem Kaiserl. Königl. ordinären Feld- und Cavallerie-Geschütze sowohl einzeln als in Batteryn. Wien 1809" are not folded out. It can be found at link

Now found plan on line for foot artillery (though 1829):

thanks, you should also post this in the useful stuff thread, I skimmed through the text, I couldn't find anything about a drummer.

@vW,

Many thanks now done as you suggested. Unfortunately no trace so far of the Kavallerie batterien diagarm(s).

Super intéressant!

Moi, j'avais ça:
url=https://www.photorapide.com/photos/1799826/p47j6n.jpg]

Mais aucune indication sur un tambour ou un trompette…

Take a look at this article from theSmoothbore Ordnance Journal,"The Austrian Cavalry Gun in Comparison to the Horse Artillery of Other States by Smola in 1827"
Translated by: Digby G. Smith, Thetford, 2010.
PDF link

From my reading I would conclude, commands were by word of mouth:
"When in action, the guns are 15 – 20 paces apart and the pack horses are 15 paces behind them. During heavy firing, the pack horses are advanced to the limber. The Military Train NCO in charge of the pack horses will lead empty pack horses back to the ammunition carts to have them refilled.
The [battery] commander always commands the leading gun in any manoeuvres; each NCO commands the leading gun of his section; they repeat each order they receive. The gun commander controls every movement that his gun makes, by shouting commands to the lead rider of the team;
he checks distance and direction."

Magnifique!

Page 22:
Low Number of Officers
Some foreign writers have consider the low number of officers and NCOs in our cavalry batteries to
be an organizational weakness, especially when the need for them to manoeuvre at speed is
considered and the higher number of officers and NCOs in the common batteries is noted. It seems
risky to consign the fate of these high-value assets to the hands of so few men. The foot artillery
batteries of most other armies are commanded by a captain, and each section of two – or at most –
three guns will have an officer commanding it and an NCO (if not two) with each piece. The British
and French horse artillery batteries both have a second captain and several NCOs as a reserve. An
Austrian cavalry battery is commanded by a subaltern. Until the increase in the artillery officers'
establishment of 1816, Oberfeuerwerker [senior artillery NCOs] were nominated to be battery
commanders as a rule. The number and duties of the lower ranks was mentioned at the start of this
piece. The fact that so many years of active service experience has not caused this to be changed,
can only reflect great credit on the lower-ranking battery commanders, their training and proven
reliability. The present state of the establishment of the corps of artillery would accommodate more
senior ranks. By replacing the impracticable drummers of the cavalry batteries with trumpeters,
each such battery had at least one, without increasing the strength of the artillery company. This
move was seen as necessary to allow commanders to control the movements of several batteries
under a single command. It was also needed to increase the esprit de corps of this special type of
unit."

Comment comprenez-vous ce paragraphe?
Un trompette en 1809 ou pas?

I missed that paragraph in my quick skim.

Remember this was written originally in 1827. Unfortunately there is no year given for this change:
"By replacing the impracticable drummers of the cavalry batteries with trumpeters, each such battery had at least one, without increasing the strength of the artillery company."
The number of officers change is given as 1816 & the drummer/trumpeter change follows that sentence so I would guess it must have happened at a similar time or slightly later but again no actual proof as to when. I have been searching my various electronic & physical documents but to no avail so far….

Have now had a good look through the material I have access to but no definite answers.

Excluding the material mentioned earlier, I had hoped "Erzherzog Carl von Österreich als Feldherr und Heeresorganisator Bd 5" by Angeli, Moriz, Edler von, PDF link would have the answer, but unfortunately not. I have also looked at Summerfield, Dawson & Dawson's work on Napoleonic Artillery, Kiley's work & the writings of Hollins but all to no avail. All had interesting stuff to say but not the magic bullet on musicians. A few more alleys to go down, but am starting to have doubts we will get find definitive answer – wonder if the Heeresgeschichtliches Museum/Militärhistorisches Institut could provide the answer?

Der Prince of Essling

I did send you – the plates 1 – 3 from the regulations, at least they should be – let me know what you think.

A lot of interesting stuff as you see and you will not how useless it is to trust non Austrian sources about this topic, it confirms how useless Toussard is, in case spreading misinformation about the Austrian cavalry Geschütz, the gunners did ride on a Wurst attached to the limber and not the ammunition waggon, indeed they did have pack horses / mules to speed up ammunition re supply. So again it is often claimed that the Austrians were slower then the French, because those (after the Revolution) were mounted at horses, but had to deal with the extreme delicate 4 wheeled ammunition waggon, which slowed down deployment.

@von Winterfeldt
"Je vous ai envoyé – les plaques 1 à 3 du règlement, au moins elles devraient l'être – "

Ce n'est pas possible de les faire partager à tous?

That's easy for you to say…

My thanks to vW for supplying me with the 3 plates from the Austrian's 1809 artillery regulations & a plate showing an Austrian limber and carriage.

To these contributions I have added a few pages from Summerfield, Dawson & Dawson' book – namely the Austrian Artillery organisation chart, pictures of Austrian horse and field artillery caissons, a note on Austrian horse artillery (the use of pack horses & the wurst seat apparently allowed 3 rounds to be fired before a French fully mounted horse artillery unit could fire off a round) & a drawing of the Austrian Wurst carriage. These all can be downloaded as one item from link

My final throw of the dice was "Geschichte der K. UND K. WEHRMACHT – Die Regimenter, Corps, Branchen und Anstalten
von 1618 bis Ende des X IX . Jahrhunderts. Volume 4 Thiel 1" which deals with the artillery.

From the notes it would appear prior to 1806 drummers were supplied by the line infantry to the artillery. It was interesting to see from charts that only 1 drummer was shown on a regiment's strength (in the headquarter) as at 1790.

There is section dealing with the various ranks:
"Regiments-Tambour. Diese Charge erscheint erst mit dem Jahre 1772 in der Artillerie. Früher und, soweit die Standes-Ausweise darüber Aufschluss geben, schon im Jahre 1641, finden sich im Stande derselben 1 bis 2 Tamboure, welche zum sogenannten „kleinen Stabe" gehörten.

Die Pflichten des Regiments-Tambours (Corps-Tambours beim Bombardier-Corps) waren jenen des Regiments-Tambours der Infanterie gleich. Mit der Neuorganisation von 1851 entfiel diese Charge und wurde statt derselben bei jedem Regimente ein Regiments-Trompeter aufgestellt, dessen Pflichten ebendieselben waren wie jene des Stabstrompeters (später Regiments-Trompeters) bei der Cavallerie. Die 1851 für ihn festgesetzten Obliegenheiten gelten auch heute noch. Er ist iu allen Angelegenheiten, welche seinen Dienst betreffen, an den Regiments-Adjutanten, in allen anderen aber an den Commandanten jener Unter-Abtheilung gewiesen, in deren Verpflegs-Stand er gehört.

Der Regiments-Trompeter stand und steht auch nun im Bange eines Feuerwerkers. Solange die Musikbanden bei der Artillerie systemisiert waren, hatte er daselbst Ordnung und Disciplin zu erhalten, mit der Musik nach Vorschrift zu exercieren und sie bei den Ausrückungen zu führen.

Beim Raketeur-Corps wurde der Regiments-Trompeter 1851—1854 als Corps-Trompeter, seit der Errichtung des Raketeur-Regiments aber ebenfalls als Regiments-Trompeter benannt.
Im Küsten-Regiment stand gleichfalls beim Regiments-Stabe ein Regiments-Trompeter.

Stabstrompeter. Mit der Organisation von 1851 wurde auch die Charge der Stabstrompeter normiert. Es bestanden anfangs deren 4. Hievon waren aber nur die 3 bei den Batterien beritten, jener beim Reserve-Bataillon nicht.

Mit 1854 erscheinen im Frieden 3 berittene Stabstrompeter, im Kriege 4. Mit der Organisation 1863 erhielten im Frieden alle Artillerie-Begimenter je 3 Stabstrompeter, im Kriege jene Nr. 6, 11, 12 je 3, die übrigen aber 4.

Die Obliegenheit der Stabstrompeter war, die Compagnie- und BatterieTrompeter. denen sie vorgesetzt waren, im Blasen der Signale und in ihren sonstigen Verrichtungen zu unterweisen. Sie wurden im Frieden der Musik beigezogen und zählten mit auf deren Stand.

Tambour, Batterie-Trompeter, Fourierschütz, Officiersdiener etc. Bestimmung, Obliegenheiten und Zweck derselben sind bereits im I. Bande für die Infanterie besprochen. Nachdem die Stellung und Obliegenheiten dieser Chargen bei der Artillerie die gleichen sind, wird auf diesen hingewiesen."

With the last paragraph guidance, I thought this may crack this conundrum. I consulted Volume 1 but no luck as Tambour & Batterie-Trompeter are not detailed at all. I have also cross-checked the Cavalry volume, but again no luck.

Thanks for compiling the pdf. Interesting stuff, especially the notes on pack mules, and the charts of movement.

I've asked about artillery trumpeters on there Gen de Brigade site in the hope that David Hollins sees it.

Cheers,
John

@Prince d'Essling
Merci beaucoup pour le PDF!

Il répond à pas mal de mes questions.

@Prince of Essling
There is a curiosity on the 'Austrian Artillery Organisation' chart. The 2nd diagram for a 6 pounder shows six x 6-pdrs and two x howitzers and I believe is intended to represent a 6-pdr position battery, which should have four x 6-pdrs and two x howitzers. The text at the foot of the page has the correct description. Is there any explanation in the text for the discrepancy?
Kind regards
Allan

@Allan.
Do not currently have access to my books etc, but I believe the 6 guns & 2 howitzer are for the Brigade battery. Will respond fully when I get back home.
Ian

Yes, position batteries typically have six guns, brigade batteries, six guns and two howitzers.

Cheers,
John

Je ne suis pas d'accord.
Les batteries de brigade avaient 8 canons, mais pas d'obusiers!

Dear all,

Now back with my books & electronic material.

My mistake, 6pdr Brigade batteries in 1809 had 8 cannon (no howitzers); but in 1813 they typically had 6 cannon & 2 howitzers.

The Trumpeter answer has been staring us in the face!

Please refer back to Digby-Smith's translation & in particular "Table 2 Concerns of economy will force the choice of the most cost-effective organization in every state. The following table shows the relative costs of a mobilized Austrian cavalry battery and the horse artillery batteries of other states."

This shows no trumpeter for the Austrians, compared with 3 for both French & Prussian horse artillery batteries; and 1 for a British horse artillery battery.

I posed the question about command control for "Austrian Cavalry Batteries" on the Napoleon Wars Forum:

"There is confusion as to how command control was implemented for such batteries. Rawkins suggests 2 drummers were present, but this seems impractical when riding a wurst. A trumpeter apparently did not appear until well post-Napoleonic Wars. Digby-Smith's translation in SOJ of Smola suggests commands were given by word of mouth.

Grateful for thoughts and guidance."

and here is David Hollins response:

"I am not sure why Rawkins is quoted for anything these days. The booklets were written in the late 1970s and copied from Ottenfeld.

The 1757 Reglement link predates Cavalry guns, but even there, drummers only appear for parades, smallarms drill and for sounding the general Alarm.

The 1832 update of Smola's 1823 Taschenbuch gives the crews at p.198+, but there is no mention of any drummer or bugler. There are no illustrations of drummers in the Schematis or bigger paintings. Given the comments in Digby's translation, these would appear to be the same position as during the wars, especially as he refers to French buglers."

Je n'ai pas tout compris…

Donc, à priori, pas de tambour et pas de trompette.
Au combat, tous les ordres étaient donnés à la voix.

C'est ça?

@Bernard1809

Yes that is the correct interpretation.

Ian

David Hollins has added a further comment on Napoleon Wars Forum in response to Bernard1809 question:

"The reason for relying on voice commands is the way the batteries were directed. France relied on its officers, so they used a drummer or later, bugler. The Austrians relied on their highly-trained NCOs. Each gun was run by an Oberfeuerwerker or sometimes, a Bombardier. Each pair of guns was directed by a Korporal and the battery was directed by an officer. So, there is a chain of command, rather than central direction."

Bernard1809's questions:
"Je ne suis pas d'accord.

Dans l'armée autrichienne, en 1809, chaque canon était commandé par un Gefreiter = Vormeister = caporal (en français).

url=https://www.photorapide.com/photos/1801750/v1c6hr.jpg]

Le Feuerwerker était un sergent-major (en français).

url=https://www.photorapide.com/photos/1801749/esx9um.jpg]

En résumé:

La batterie d'artillerie était commandée par un officier.

Avec sous ses ordres un Feuerwerker (sergent-major en français).

Chaque section de 2 pièces d'artillerie était commandée par un Korporal (sergent en français).

Enfin, chaque pièce était commandée par un Gefreiter = Vormeister (caporal en français).

url=https://www.photorapide.com/photos/1801751/t2ings.jpg]

Cordialement

Bernard1809"