"Rules for the Irish War of Independence?" Topic

I'm thinking about buying some figs from Reviresco and or Cannon Fodder, and am not sure what rules to use. I have Contemptible Little Armies, GASLIGHT, and Chain Reaction, but am not convinced that any of the three are quite what I'm looking for. Suggestions?

Try my mate Jim Clark's FOR KING AND COUNTRY rules, as published in Miniature Wargames. They are for 1915, but would adapt well, although you'd need to do some work yourself! Can't remember the issue but a year or two ago. LKM are going to publish variants for different periods shortly. I plan to do some figures for ICW for such.

Great period- enjoy.

You might like to try IRISH REBELLION - THE BLACK AND TAN WAR RULES. Available for $18.00 USD from Leo Cronin, 6804 Oak Point Drive, Middleboro, MA 02346. First written back in 1969, recently republished in 2004.

Very basic rules and some good historical information.

leokilo7, can you give us any more info on the rules? I've been looking for a dedicated set for years!!

Yes, Leokilo7, tell us more, and where might we get them?

Kevin

Surely any 20th century WWI/WWII set would do. I presume you are aiming at a skirmish/platoon level game (did they ever fight any bigger pitched battles - siege of Post Office?).

Leo's in my local gaming club. I've played these rules several times and always had fun!

Guys, he gave an address for Leo, didnt he? Have we forgotten how to write letters? I have an email address, but I do not feel it is proper to give it out without permission, he is such a nice guy.

"Black and Tan War" is the very first skirmish/rpg game ever written. Leo did it for a con in 1969. Up to then, wargames were done by regiments, battalions, etc. It's probably been re-written heavily since its origin, but is a lot of fun, if The Troubles can be called "fun".

It is a VERY unbalanced game. You have the table crawling with heavily armed Crown troops, and almost unarmed Irish "civilians", who have 3 pistols and a shotgun between them, who usually win. The game is almost a metaphor for Mao's "fish swimming in a pond".

You need a large number of civilian, unarmed figures. Number their bases, and give them names. Leo even came up with the concept of npc's before they became famous. Some of the "civilians" are "not what they seem". Some are IRA, some are informers, some can be both. During the first phase of the turn, the Crown forces can ask the informants for IRA identities. This is done by a card draw, one card for each civilian. Draw one card per informant per turn, and see if they are IRA. Then you have to find them.

Irish forces move all civilians. Crown forces may give civilians orders and search them. Weapons are usually hidden.

Finally, the Crown forces are highly varied. The Royal Irish Constabulary are local boys, and get along fine. The evil Black and Tans and Auxies are scum.

If you get the rules, DO NOT LET YOUR PLAYERS READ THE SCENARIO BOOK!!! That is extremely important, as Leo has an extremely devious mind.

The first game I played, I wanted to be IRA. I asked Leo what the Victory Conditions were. He said "The GovernorGeneral is driving through town." "OK. What are my Victory Conditions?" He looked at me like I was daft, and repeatedin a louder voice, "The Governor General is riding through town!". "Oh."

Although the rules are written specifically for the Irish War of Independence, the concepts are almost universal, and could be used for many Civil Unrest games. It is very scenario driven, and players who demand even matches with each player getting a brigade with 5 regiments would be better served sticking with that kind ofgame. Players who cannot grasp the concept that in 1920 the RIC would NOT molest local women during a search should also play someting else. Like Black and Tans.

Figure scale is 1:1. The largest group of figures that a Crown player should control is a carload.

You don't want this game for pitched battles. You want it for odd, personal rpg type scenarios.

John, have you tried the Deputys Dilema scenario yet? I love that one! I am going to travel down to North Carolina in the fall to Southern Front and plan to run three scenarios including the Governor General and Deputys Dilema.

Ran a new one Thursday night (St Pattys Day). Surprise and good dice were on the side of the rebels.

Rules aside, the best part of any game are the players. Get those with the right attitude and you can give the rebels one pistol to fight 50 RIC, Black & Tans, and Auxiliaries and still have everyone laughing.

my email address is leok7@excite.com I dont mind giving it out

Sorry- you the Leo who wrote the rules? Do you want a UK distributor, if so I recommend you contact LKM Direct as this sounds right up their street. Contact info@quickreactionforce.co.uk if you're interested (Geoff's email), say Steve suggested you get in touch...

Guys, this is a bit long, so be warned.

First up, I'm Irish and from the Republic. I had a grandad who was out with an IRA "flying column" and went through an educational system which emphasised the "struggle for Irish freedom" up until relatively recently. It's only relatively recently that there has been a greater availability of history texts in this country which take a more objective look at what happened here between 1916 and 1922. The perception of how Ireland went from being a British colony to an independent nation is changing, and the role the armed struggle played in all of that is being reevaluated. I respect and am thankful to those who fought for the right that I now have to call myself an Irishman, while being repulsed at what has been done in the name of the Irish people in Northern Ireland and in Britain by those who claim to be the modern representatives of the old IRA.

And that's enough of that.

Gaming the Irish War of independence (IWI) or the Civil war which quickly followed isn't the esaiest proposition. This war was the quintessential guerrilla war - small bands of very irregular (but in some cases highly skilled and motivated) troops with the support of the majority of the population taking on the vastly numerically superor regular(ish) Crown forces, such as the Black & Tans, Auxillaries, Royal Irish Constabulary and of course the British Army.

The difficulty with gaming the IWI is how to accurately present scenarios which are at least representative if not strictly a recreation of actions from the Troubles. I reality, any set of 20th century skirmish rules will do, particularly those weighted towards smaller numbers of figures/actions. While I've never played "We Could Be Heroes", this type of ruleset or similar would seem to be ideal.

There were very few large scale actions in the IWI, apart from the Easter Rising in 1916 in which the Crown forces used everything from cavalry to a gunboat which they brought up the River Liffey to shell the rebels!! Not really gameable, now is it!

The majority of actions were something similar to what the Resistance would have carried out in occupied France during WW2 or what's faced by the Coalition forces in Iraq. These would bascically be raids against small outposts, assassainations, linking up with agents or spies, sabotage/destruction of property and ambushes of military convoys. THe IWI also contained what would be termed atrocities these days - such as the use of machine guns on crowds at a football match (Crown forces), or the shooting of troops attempting to surrender (IRA "flying column" shooting British soldiers at the Kilmichael ambush). Not pleasant and no angels on either side.

I've gamed the IWI using Arc of Fire, sometimes having either the IRA or the Crown troops umpire-controlled, and occasionally used scaled down RPG rules for certain small scale actions. Best advice I can give to anyone interested is to look at rules for similar conflicts worldwide and adapt the relevant concepts into rules for smaller actions.

leokilo7, I am just getting figures painted and buidings assembled. We will PROBABLY be ready to go around July or so.

As for the Deputy's Dilemna, shhhhh! This is the primary reason that players should have no access to the scenario book.

Thanks for the description of the rules OFM.

I don't think I have forgotten how to write letters (I'm probably as old and old f - -ish as your own good self!), but asking the question here let's other people who might be interested see the answer too! 8-)

Thanks again, the rules sound like fun!

Thanks dubhgael for the insights into the conflict. It was reading accounts of just such raids and ambushes as you describe that got me interested in the first place. I have recently picked up a copy of We Can be Heroes and was intending to try them out. I just got a Good Day to Die by Chris Peers today and was reading through them to see how they might work out.

Add those to Leo's rules and we have some good choices!

The trouble with adapting and using any rules for this particular war is the difficulty in "hiding" the identity of the rebels. Unless the man is armed and in plain sight, there is almost no way of knowing who is the enemy. That is why I mix about a dozen rebels in amongst sixty or seventy civilian figures.

dubhgael is right about how things are in the Republic regarding the War for Independence. A few monuments, a small display in the National Museum, and relatively few books. All due, I am sure, to the continuing "struggle" in the north. But there are a few excellant books available which give an idea of the true nature of the fight in 1919-21.

I also found the movie "Michael Collins," which nobody saw in the theaters quite inspiring. Don't know how accurate it is.

Kevin

The movie was generally accurate as to the flow of events but hollywood in the details. The spy in Dublin Castle was never caught. RIC Barracks didn't have a straw roof (they had slate which the IRA broke through with stones, then threw in some petrol and then a grenade or torch to set them off). The Black and Tans in the movie wore the headgear of the Auxiliaries and the Black & Tans in reality were intergrated with the regular RIC within a couple of months of joining. Although the Auxiliaries might have carried a Lewis Gun from time to time, there is no record that I know of showing either the RIC or Black & Tans having them.

leokilo7:

Is that 18 USD with shipping and handling? Do you take Paypal?

morrigan:
I'll be interested in knowing whether a Good Day to Die is suited for IWI, as I'm a big fan of other rule sets by Chris Peers.

fgilbert2 : 18 USD includes shipping and handling. I don't deal with paypal

Leo

Guys, I was very surprised at the level of interest on this topic!!

Have gone out on a limb and set up a yahoogroup if people are interested:

groups.yahoo.com/group/IWI

Membership requires approval for the time being.

Looking forward to seeing some of you there.

This has always had a spark of interest for me - think I'll mosey to the yahoo group, and join up. Hey, what's one more? :)

Leo, you'll probably be seeing an order from me in a few months.

dubhgael (or anyone else), could you recommend some (any) books on the IWI?

nvdoyle

More than happy to start compiling booklist. I'll post same on this thread as soon as I've something together and of course, on the yahoogroup as soon as I've something together.

Hi Gents Books for the period
POLICE CASUALTIES IN IRELAND, 1919-1922, Richard Abbott, Mercier Press, Dublin, 2000
GUERRILLA DAYS IN IRELAND, Tom Barry, Anvil Books, Tralee, Ireland, 1962
THE BLACK AND TANS, Richard Bennett, E Hulton & Co, London, England, 1959
MY FIGHT FOR IRISH FREEDOM, Anvil Books, Dublin, 1981
TOWARDS IRELAND FREE - THE WEST CORK BRIGADE IN THE WAR OF INDEPENDENCE 1917-1921, Liam Deasy, Royal Carbery Books, Ballinlough, Cork, Ireland, 1973
TANS, TERROR AND TROUBLES - KERRY'S REAL FIGHTING STORY 1913-1923, Mercier Press, Cork, Ireland, 2001
PROTEST IN ARMS: THE IRISH TROUBLES 1916-1923 Edger Holt, Coward-McCann, New York, 1960
LIMERICK'S FIGHTING STORY, Anvil Books, Dublin
ON ANOTHER MAN'S WOUNDS, Anvil Books, Dublin, 1979

Those are my favorites. If you get the first two on the list you will have an excellant background as to what was happening.

leokilo

Great list mate.

Am currently adding scenario specific files to the group - 2 in the last 30 mins or so.

Great topic,
For anyone interested in gaming in a smaller scale than 28mm, Liberation/Axal minitures makes an excellent line of figures for this conflict. I have their early IRA sets and they are great. Funny thing is, I have used them everywhere else except Ireland. They have been to Spain, the Balkans, and Russia!

I have not picked up any of Libertion's Crown forces yet, but I will soon.

I forgot to add that the Liberation/Axal line is 20mm. They fit well with Reviresco's 1/72 vehicles.

I have some of all of them hrothgar and love them. If only, only Rolf would release some RIC, and maybe some Specials! I've asked about it and he says he wants to do it because the range has sold fairly well, but the modern lobbyists seem to be the most vocal. 8-(

Hi all, me again.

Group now has 4 scenario possibilities in its "Files" section all taken from small actions in Co. Cork between 1917 and 1922, as well as a pic or two.

Thanks to those who've joined already.

The Irish Civil War (as terrible as it was) may prevent some better scenarios for tabletop gaming. There was essentially a war of manuever between the Republican (Anti-Treaty) and Free State (Pre-Treaty) forces after the end of the Irish War of Independence. This paper has a lot of information, and includes some examples of small battles that might easily be reporduced on the tabletop.

link

The Irish Civil War (as terrible as it was) may prevent some better scenarios for tabletop gaming. There was essentially a war of manuever between the Republican (Anti-Treaty) and Free State (Pre-Treaty) forces after the end of the Irish War of Independence. This paper has a lot of information, and includes some examples of small battles that might easily be reporduced on the tabletop.

link

Trotsky,

Thanks for the link, much appreciated.

Stop by the group sometime and see how we're getting on.

There was a set of rules, background info, and a scenario printed in The Courier - available through Magweb.

Picked up a copy of Eoin Neeson's 'THE CIVIL WAR IN IRELAND (1966) for £2.50 GBP in a book sale in Lake District on Friday! Nice photo of a free-state soldier with a Thompson.