"Iraq Mig 29 Question" Topic

Was the Mig 29 used by Iraq in the first Gulf War? (AKA The Iran-Iraq war) Thanks Doug

It's possible, but very unlikely. Lists of documented engagements only refer to Desert Storm time; the following cut and paste sums it up well:

"Iraq took delivery of its first 18 "Fulcrums" in 1987, the year before the Iran-Iraq War ended, so it's possible that some Iraqi MiG-29s saw limited ser- vice in the war, but given the time necessary to train pilots and ground crew, and make new aircraft operational, it's likely that the war ended before the MiGs saw any serious fighting. Also, by that time, the Iranian Air Force was almost non-operational due to a lack of spares and a conservative use doctrine, and so air-to-air engagements were fleeting and usually not decisive. "

Dom.

Didn't many of those Mig 29's wind up IN Iran once Desert Storm got underway? The irony....

Interesting to note that the Mig 29 - I think they've dropped the capital "G" these days, so have corrected my own capitalisation this time.... ;-) has a surprisingly poor combat record. At least 6 aircraft shot down, while the only "kills" credited (maybe "attributed" is a better word, given the circumstances....) are a pair of Cessnas splashed by a Cuban Mig, and an Iraqi Mig 23 shot down by his wingman in a Mig 29....

That said, air to air combat for it has more or less been poorly trained pilots against superior aircrews in F15s. Difficult to tell what it would do in the event of evenly matched crews.

Dom.

According to the Sqadron/Signal book, Iraq received 18 Mig-29's in 1987 with another 16 in 1989.

While at least 8 Fulcrums were lost to F-15's & F-18's in air-to-air combat, and many were sent to Iran, at least half a dozen were found by Coalition forces after the invasion buried in the sand to hide them.

Reportedly, the only US air-to-air loss of the Gulf War, an F/A-18, was lost to a Fulcrum - although I haven't found the circumstances.

Wyatt

"1/17 0200Z - Loss F/A-18C VFA-81 - 29nm SE Baghdad MiG-25PD "

Only one I know of. Foxbat rather than a Fulcrum.

Dom.

Wow thanks for the quick replies.
I ordered about 70 aircraft and was choosing sides. It looks like I could play a "what if" Scenarios using Iraqi Mig-29's and some Floggers VS Iranian F-14 Tomcats and a few F-4's. I could also do a few What If's Using the Iraqi Mig-29's VS coalition forces for "Iraqi Storm" Scenarios.

Yep.... :-) For Desert Storm, have a Google, as there were a few genuine encounters, but the massive gulf in pilot training and experience really meant the Iraqis were bound to get the rough end of the exchange....

Also look up a novel called Firebreak; has a couple of scenarios just waiting to be gamed; Iraqi Migs including a couple of decent pilots, versus US F15s without the usual AWACs and logistic support. (Plot is tenuous but readable, and actually puts things into a situation where both sides have a realistic chance.)

Dom.

Thanks for the clarification, Dom. One of the other accounts in the Squadron/Signal book stated that one Iraqi Mig-29 in a 2-plane flight accidently shot down his wingleader's Fulcrum and then became so disoriented by the event that he flew into the ground himself.

Therefore, the difference in the training between US and Iraqui air forces can be best summed up, "US pilots break ground and fly into the wind while Iraqi pilots break wind and fly into the ground."

Wyatt

"One of the other accounts in the Squadron/Signal book stated that one Iraqi Mig-29 in a 2-plane flight accidently shot down his wingleader's Fulcrum and then became so disoriented by the event that he flew into the ground himself."

Interesting, as that appears to be the incident I mentioned in Mig 29 "kills" - I've only read up on the encounter on the 'net, but from several different sites, and definitely not "cut and pasted" from one to another. My reading all says the element leader was a Mig 29, with a 23 as his wingman, attempting a night intercept against a package of F15s. They got separated, and the 29 managed to lock up and kill the 23, before subsequently ploughing into the ground.

To be honest, the training difference can probably be summed up by "US pilots get to train, in airplanes, while Iraqis are grounded...."

Dom.

Interesting.... Have just had a look around, and it looks like that was misreported in *both* our versions. Very long cut and paste, but very interesting:

- 1 x MiG-29 Maneuvering Suicide and 1 x MiG-23 Fratricide:

v Pilot: Capt Richard T. Bennett, WSO: Capt Daniel B. Bakke

was a Flight Leader with the 335th TFS & flew 58 x missions,

see Air Force Magazine, Jan 93, pg34

v crossing the Iraqi border he could see massive AAA after F-117's strikes had been realized

v past Bagdad to hit SCUD fixed-sites around H-2 in Western Iraq

v 12 x F-15E's in trail utilizing FLIR visual tracking for 2 nm to 6 nm spacing

v About 80 nm out, 3 x Flogger's and 2 x Fulcrum's were "up" and coming towards them trying to intercept the formation in pitch-black darkness with marginal weather

v Was "spiked" on RWR by MiG-29's several times as they were looking (sampling and sorting) for the end of the train flying at 100 ft and 600 knots. Demonstrated some very good initial set-up and sort.

v All of the F-15E's could "see" the MiG's on Radar, but elected not to shoot for fear of giving away their formation

v 1 x MiG-29 came down the left side of the trail formation. Attempted to roll in on the F-15E, 6 nm in front but hit the ground.

v F-15E pilots got a FLIR ID confirmation of a MiG-29

v A second F-15E had radar contact on another MiG-29 coming down the right side of the train. The MiG-29 had a lock-on, therefore the pilot fired 1 x AIM-9L but the missile went stupid and missed.

v The Flogger's stayed higher looking for the F-15's with their IRST's and GCI was assumed to be operating.

v The MiG-29 lost lock on the F-15E that fired the Sidewinder, assumed to be in the Beam at the time, but appeared to lock up on one of the Flogger's which were higher in altitude. MiG-29 was assumed to be in an Automatic Mode.

v Flogger's were at least 2000 feet higher

v The MiG-29 shot a missile and destroyed a MiG-23 Flogger

v This was originally reported as: Lead accidently shot down his wingman MiG-29 Fulcrum over Western Iraq as the formation attempted to intercept US strike aircraft. The formation was heading north when the wingman became positioned in a turn in front of flight lead. The radar system might have been in a auto-acquisition mode and locked on the MiG-29. Pilots are trained to fly with their triggers depressed to beat the ID circuits and interlocks in getting a committed missile off the rails faster. So it is possible that this condition caused the Lead to shoot the Wingman with a missile. Around 30 seconds later, the flight leader flew into the ground a few miles away from where the wingman hit. Neither pilot was seen to eject. This technique by the MiG-29 pilots utilizes a friendly IFF interrogator to prevent

firing circuits from being energized. In a quasi-Dogfight mode, the MiG-29 has an auto-acquisition mode that employs a box scan in the forward area with acquisition out to around 10 NM. The Iraqi's might have not had the IFF "ID" check in the aircraft and simply the leader locked on the wingman and a missile went off.

SOURCE: link

Click on the "Day 1" page, and it's in there.

Cheers,
Dom.

Dom - Gotta love the internet.

Squadron is not always accurate so I'm always happy when I can get correct information.

Cheers,

Wyatt