"Gloss Before Wash - Always Necessary?" Topic

Is it always necessary to gloss varnish a model/vehicle/figure before using a wash, or is it just a good idea?

I understand that it leaves a good "safe" layer to go back to should the wash not work out. And that it really helps get the wash down into the recesses. But using say, a GW wash over Vallejo base paints should give fine results without a gloss coat, no? Or am I wrong?

I'm planning on Nuln Oil over Russian Green and some other detail colors. Followed by repainting any lost detail, and a light drybrush, then some weathering and a wash with Agrax Earthshade over anything that needs to be more brown.

Good? Bad? "Right"? Wrong? Suggestions?

1/100 scale plastic model kit in this case, but a general question from a beginning painter. Thanks for any insight you can offer.

Never heard of that, sounds like an extra layer that could just clog detail..

I've heard some folks do a coat of gloss varnish before a coat of matte varnish, but never a paint wash.

The gloss coat supposedly helps the ink, and/or wash flow better, and not obscure the paint on most of the figure.

It gets into the crevices better, with a smooth finish.

I'm pretty sure this originated when painters started using Acrylics a lot more than enamels. A lot of painters still swear by oil or enamel washes which ofc are primarily White or mineral spirit based. The Idea of a gloss varnish coat is supposed to help capillary action of the wash and protect the acrylic paint layer from the harsh solvent.

I found it helps move the ink/paint into the folds better, otherwise it just soaks into the paint and you get a dark figure.

I'm with Fizzy's way of thinking. I occasionally use oil washes on vehicles and have found that the micro texture of some acrylics means that they just soak the wash rather than it running to recesses. A gloss coat would stop this.

Not sure it's necessary with some of the modern stuff especially the new GW witchcraft washes.

I have had lots of problems with oil wash over acrylics. Flat acrylics leave a fine rough surface. The wash grabs the texture of the surface instead of flowing, leaving a dark stain over the figure. Test on a single figure first, but I have done it enough to not do it again.

I've started to do this now. For an oil/spirit wash over acrylic it does aid the capillary action of the paint flow, and you don't get so much settling on the raised surfaces. So MiG pigment type washes are good fore this

for acrylic on acrylic (like a GW wash) then i wouldn't bother, you end up increasing the surface tension that the paint pools.

a quick zap with gloss does the trick

I never do. My wash is Minwax Tudor Satin, and I like the effect of muddying down the other colors.

Thanks for the replies and advice.

I'll try a couple of things, and see how it works out.

I have put a layer of gloss spray before putting wash, with quite good outcome:
link

I use "Magic Wash". If I don't put a coat of varnish (Humbrol Satincote) on first, it causes a definite colour change in the underlying paint. In some cases that is desirable, as it gives a worn/ campaign appearance. In other cases, I want a nice bright colour, so the varnish layer is essential. As with so many painting techniques, it's horses for courses.

I'm like steamingdave, only instead of varnish I use a straight coat of Future before the wash. Has the same effect.

I also use a gloss coat before a wash, but in my case it is Future floor polish and a little water.

Lovely work, as always, Umpapa.

And thanks for the replies, respondents.

Yep, I now varnish before doing a magic wash, otherwise the 'tooth' on the acrylic just turns the whole figure mucky, particularly whites and greys. Also, I have toned down my wash to be even more 'subtle'.

The best washes and inks I've found are from Games Workshop. And the last thing I do is is spray the model when it is complete with Testors Dullcote … And I pretty much only use water base paints for everything, save for using enamel for base coating metal …

As the others have said, NOT putting a gloss coat down tends to darken the painted surface, in addition to settling into the cracks and crevasses.

I typically DON'T use an intermediate gloss coat, as I want the paint to darken a little. Then I'll go back over with the base color as my first highlight, at least on 28mm minis. 15s are too small, I don't bother with highlighting them.

I tend to mix up my own "Magic Wash" from 1 drop of whatever ink, 1 drop of Future (Pledge with Future Shine, these days), and then between 3 and 8 drops of water, depending on how intense I want the result to be. The Future breaks the surface tension of the wash, and helps keep more of the wash in the cracks and less on the paint. I prefer to go thinner on the wash than thicker, as you can always go back a second time and make the shadows darker.

I know Piers Brand always puts a gloss coat down before using oil-based washes, and Piers does amazing work. But he's usually working with 20mm minis which are a good bit bigger than 15s.

If you're pin washing the detail, then you don't need to seal the surface prior. If you're doing a whole of model wash then I'd definitely seal the model first. The Pledge/Future arylic wash + water is the most cost effective solution, but can sometimes be a tad thin. Gloss and satin varnish out of a spray can are good.

But this is what your revell model kits are great for – experiment with various methods and combos till you find the one that works for you.

Sharing another learning I've made, with GW washes they come out of the pot very heavy with pigment. I dilute mine with the GW lamian medium, which is basically their wash without pigment. I find that if doing a whole of model wash I would dilute at least 60/40 medium to wash – often a lot more for darker colours like blue and black, but also sepia if going over a sand or tan colour. Also check out the GW camoshade wash (can't remember the silly part of the name) which is basically green + brown wash. I've found it perfect for any green based models like tanks and vehicles. Prefer to use the brown and sepia washes for infantry.

I used to do the varnish thing but now I just accept the colour staining and adjust the base colours and post wash highlighting accordingly.

I'm with you there, that's definitely how I approach a lot of German and desert kit.

I found it helps move the ink/paint into the folds better, otherwise it just soaks into the paint and you get a dark figure.

yes, that's right i think, you want your wash to be of a different base than the clear coat thats underneath…..

All of them are right and wrong. Experiment till you find the effect you are looking for.

For the record I am a Wash with magic wash then touche up sorta guy…

Have a look at the new Humbrol washes ( they work on acrylic and enamel )not fiddled with them much myself yet but they seem very clean.
L

I put an oil stain into gloss/satin varnish sometimes. I also do "dip" washes with future, ink, vallejo "washes" (very pigmented) and water all mixed together. I would always seal a figure with varnish prior to an oil wash.

Do you think that spraying vallejo matt acrylic varnish prior to washing with dip, or even oils, would make a difference? I don't know how the surface of vallejo matt varnish compares to acrylic paint.

In my experience, laying any wash over a matt varnish will give a 'gritty' finish due to the nature of how matting agents work. Matting agents are purposely designed to roughen the film surface, this prevents light from being reflected back at a uniform and natural angle.

So I'd be better using future/water/(flow aid) as a base upon which to wash?

A gloss base, whether it be future or gloss varnish, will result in more well defined shadow and create a higher contrast between the base colour and the wash colour if that is your desired effect. Adding a very small amount of diluted flowaid to your wash (so long as it is water based) will also help the wash to find all the nooks and crannies.

I will give (future+water) base and then a (future+water+ink) wash a try. This is a great forum for suggestions. Thank you.

The best thing to do Chortle is get hold of a sheet of model makers stonework or brickwork, something that has a patterned texture and try out lots of different combinations and potions on it. That's what I use when ever I'm trying out new washes.

Im just trying these techniques for the first time. I used Pledge Klear as a binding coat, brushed on to my WW2 AFV. I then used the AK blue wash for german vehicles and Nurn oil wash over detail recesses as a pin wash.

The blue wash came out a bit greenish over the Klear, and I needed to redo all the highlight tones on the tank again. The Klear just obscured them totally.

The model is coming along, and I think I am almost there with it.

I'm going to try spraying a lighter coat of Klear next time, not brush it on. And I think thinned artists oil gives a better and more controllable pin wash than the citadel wash.

Generally I would say oils washing on acrylics are ok without a coat of Klear, but I wouldnt wash acrylics onto other acrylics without a varnish coat.