"French horse artillery train driver's uniforms" Topic

I realize that Napoleonic French horse artillery had it's own drivers while the gunners rode their own horses.However, some illustrations seem to show the train drivers in the same uniforms as the lighter blue foot artillery drivers while others show them in the horse artillery uniform. Which is correct?

I have the same question and I've also seen them in a blue-gray to gray uniform.

What exactly were the colors for:

Train drivers
Foot Artillery drivers
Horse Artillery drivers

Cheers,

The Bandit

According to Rousselot its a bit of a cross between the two so you or the illustrators may seen one thinking it was the other! However they didn't wear horse artillery uniform they wore the same colours as the foot drivers.

His take is that the jacket was identical to the foot drivers but with red grenades on the turnbacks instead of white, or that they wore the same jackets but edged in red with the red grenade.

Hungarian style breaches with red braid and hussar boots trimmed with red cord and a tassel.

They might also wear leather lined overalls with a blue stripe over boots.

As per all French uniforms there's way too much detail to go into here and then of course the Guard on top of that!

Basic colours were the Gris de fer and Gris de fer fonce but as both of these Greys look very blue to me light and dark blue would do me! Besides they switched to a Sky Blue/ Imperial Blue later.

Train Drivers were the same but where foot and horse drivers were dark blue and light blue, they were chocolate brown and light blue.

So is it crazy wrong to paint the Horse and Foot and Train drivers the standard blue one might use for nearly all other French troops?

I'm not a purist who gets hung up on what shade of "dark blue" but I do consider light blue and dark blue different colors…

Cheers,

The Bandit

There were a number of train formations in the French Army providing drivers for various purposes. The basic uniform for all was similar and was at various times grey or grey blue depending on the year and was redesigned under the Bardin regulations in 1812. They did not wear the same blue as the infantry (except the drivers serving in the infantry regiments who had a regimental gun company from 1809-12). Cuffs and lapels varied in colour depending which train formation it was. The Train d'Artillerie had dark blue. The Train des Equipages (Transport Corps) had brown and the Train du Genie (for the engineers) had black. There was no distinguishing between the Train with the horse artillery and that with the foot though the former would adopt unofficial embellishments to show their special status as well as breeches and overalls as Trajanus said. And then there was the Guard with its own versions. In the end, the French Army was so wide spread and diverse, there was never an absolutely uniform appearance and minor variations were always present.

So is it crazy wrong to paint the Horse and Foot and Train drivers the standard blue one might use for nearly all other French troops?

Yeah it kinda is.

You might use the 'standard blue' for the dark part of the jacket (front and collar) but the rest is a sky blue similar to the collars and horse furniture of the Carabiniers when they went over to the white Cuirassier style uniform in 1810.

In the end, the French Army was so wide spread and diverse, there was never an absolutely uniform appearance and minor variations were always present

Its a curse that drives people mad but on the other hand a lot of the time you are never completely wrong. You just have to put up with folks saying you are! :o)

The answer is to paint Austrians, or British, or whatever!

Don't start on variations amongst the British infantry ……..!

You might use the 'standard blue' for the dark part of the jacket (front and collar) but the rest is a sky blue similar to the collars and horse furniture of the Carabiniers when they went over to the white Cuirassier style uniform in 1810.

Same for the pants? and fine across Foot, Horse & Train?

I've got about ~150 drivers to paint up for the artillery park I just did.

link

I'm not a button counter but I don't want to paint the blue part red or vice versa.

Cheers,

The Bandit

French train troops were uniformed in a color usually referred to as 'gris-de-fir' or, in English, iron grey. It covered any and all shades from medium gray to blue-greys, but wasn't a sky blue.

Different train units (artillerie, equipage, engineer, etc.) would have different facing colors, but the main color of the coat and breeches was 'iron grey.'

Artillery train units assigned to horse artillery would usually wear light cavalry boots, and the officers and trumpeters might be in colpacks, the trumpeters many times in white ones.

However, the uniforms were the same color, and generally the same cut, for train troops assigned to either horse or foot artillery.

Guard artillery train troops might be a little fancier, and have Guard buttons on their coats, but they still wore uniforms the same color as the line.

B

Information from: French Napoleonic artillery by Michael Head, almark publications.
There was the artillery train of the guard and the artillery train of the line ( so no train specific for horse or foot artillery). There also existed the equipment train.

Uniform: habit coat with short tails; steel grey with blue (dark?) turnbacks, lapels and cuffs. Turnbacks with steel grey grenade. Pointed shoulder flaps in steel grey piped dark blue. Buttons white metal. Waistcoat steel grey. Breeches off white, sometimes a red side stripe is shown on breeches. (as servicedress, grey breeeches could be worn). Whitened shoulderbelt with black pouch.
The lapels on the habit coat were shown square cut bur mentuioned is that they were pointed in the 1808-1810 and 1812-1813 period.
Also elite companies had white grenade on turnbacks and red pompoms.

The shako should have steelgrey ccords and flounders and in full dress a steel grey plume on a pompon. But also white cordss and flounders are mentioned.

In 1810 steel grey unifrom was replaced with sky blue uniform in 2 forms:
- habit coat with blue collar, lapels and straps were sky blue piped white and the soubisse piping, 3 pointed pockets and turnback grenades also in white
- chasseus pattern (habit kinski) single breasted with 9 buttons down the front

But in 1812 the habit veste in steel grey was issued to the train; the habit coat in steel grey also returned. With dark blue collar, lapels, cuffs and turnbacks all piped steelgrey and steed grey pointed shoulder sstraps piped blue.

This may help:
link

'There also existed the equipment train.'

What was the 'equipment train' and what equipment did they carry?

The train des equipages was the supply train, not the equipment train-fifteen battalions of them went into Russia in 1812 and they suffered about 5700 casualties out of 7000 at the beginning of the campaign.

The proper title was Train des Equipages Militaires and was established in 1807. One battalion usually supported a corps d'armee.

Their first uniform was brown faced with blue, but that was changed to gris-de-fir faced with brown in 1808.

B

Kevin,

You're honestly arguing with him because he wrote "Equipment Train" instead of "the Train of Military Equipment" wow, ya know, that's a really poor thing to argue over…

Also…

gris-de-fir

Which is what color?

Cheers,

The Bandit

I'm not arguing about anything.

The term used in English is too often translated as 'equipment train' when a more accurate translation is 'supply train' which is what I posted.

I also posted what 'gris-de-fir' meant as a color, which is this:

'French train troops were uniformed in a color usually referred to as 'gris-de-fir' or, in English, iron grey. It covered any and all shades from medium gray to blue-greys, but wasn't a sky blue.'

I have no problem with being disagreed with, but at least get it right.

B

I'm not arguing about anything.

Then you are really bad at conveying your intent with the written word.

The term used in English is too often translated as 'equipment train' when a more accurate translation is 'supply train' which is what I posted.

I wonder what sorta supplies they were hauling… maybe military equipment…

I accept that the literal translation and the relevant translations differ between 'Supply Train' and 'Military Equipment Train' but I don't know that in this specific case the two convey very different things.

I have no problem with being disagreed with, but at least get it right.

Actually I think you were just on a "I want to write all applicable terms in French" stint.

or…

29 Jul 2013 1:42 p.m. PST

French train troops were uniformed in a color usually referred to as 'gris-de-fir' or, in English, iron grey. It covered any and all shades from medium gray to blue-greys, but wasn't a sky blue.

29 Jul 2013 7:53 p.m. PST

Their first uniform was brown faced with blue, but that was changed to gris-de-fir faced with brown in 1808.

…you just felt like repeating yourself and do so less clearly the 2nd time.

11th ACR,

Thanks for the link, no idea why I didn't think to look there first as I commonly visit the site, thanks again.

Cheers,

The Bandit

Well, I can see were this is going.

So I will be the first one to say:
Bricole! Bricole! Bricole!

And now back to a great day for all.

Brechtel,
thanks for adding the correct term. I'm dutch so the translation wasn't correct.

'thanks for adding the correct term. I'm dutch so the translation wasn't correct.'

You're very welcome. I hope that it helped.

B

'Well, I can see were this is going.'

Doesn't it always with some?

B

Doesn't it always with some?

Yes, but look inward to find the "some" as I don't belong to the "everyone picks on Kevin" group you believe exists.

Cheers,

The Bandit

Properly 'Gris de Fer'- as Trajanus also renders it. As T also points out, the most notable difference is that HA drivers are often depicted with Hessian boots.
I do not think this distinction was regulation. I believe that the Train companies supporting the Horse Artillery were drawn from ordinary Train regiments, many of whose other companies supported Foot Artillery units, and were subject to the same basic uniform regulations.
I think though, long service alongside the same HA companies would tempt their supporting train troops to adopt some features of HA uniform, like the dashing Hussar boots, over time.

'Yes, but look inward to find the "some" as I don't belong to the "everyone picks on Kevin" group you believe exists.'

And who ever suggested that silly attitude except you? I certainly haven't.

Perhaps instead of attempting to pick a fight, you might at least attempt to be civil. Some people on message boards do try to bait and/or start fights that accomplish nothing. That is a fact. I am sorry that you cannot deal with it.

B

Each French artillery train battalion had an elite company that was assigned to the horse artillery companies. These two companies would serve together for long periods and would develop into one integrated unit. And the commander of the attached train company would be of lesser rank than the gun company commander.

B

And who ever suggested that silly attitude except you? I certainly haven't.

'Well, I can see were this is going.'

Doesn't it always with some?

B

You are either an inelegant conveyer of written notions or…

Some people on message boards do try to bait and/or start fights that accomplish nothing.

…you are who you are referring to.

Perhaps instead of attempting to pick a fight, you might at least attempt to be civil.

I wasn't attempting to pick a fight, I thought you said something rudely and called it out.

What was the 'equipment train' and what equipment did they carry?… The proper title was Train des Equipages Militaires and was established in 1807.

I am sorry that you cannot deal with it.

I'm no losing sleep so I think I deal with it fine.

Maybe you weren't trying to be rude, maybe you just write in such a way that comes across that way, but it sounded snide so I called it out. If it was not your intent then please consider my response on the issue an advisement that maybe those you refer to as "some" understand your style of writing on this board to be something other than what you intend through no malice of their own. A refinement of tone might result in a lot less arguments and attacks.

You're a knowledgable guy who often shares a lot of information with our community. You're also a guy who expresses that information using written tones that infer and sometimes outright demonstrate a lot of snide condescension. This makes it hard to interact with you even if it is not your intent and sadly it undermines your arguments in debates when you are probably accurate and correct in your points.

Regardless, thanks for the information you shared on the thread subject and hopefully you can take what I just wrote positively and make some use of it.

Cheers,

The Bandit

Bricole, Bricole, Bricole!!!

Amen.

B

There is a very good discussion in Napoleon's Last Grande Armée on this.

Officially there was no difference between horse and foot artillery train uniforms – however seeminlgy horse artillery train adopted red piping (in contrast to the white regulation) and red grenades on the turnbacks, also light cavalry boots instead of heavy cavalry boots were worn or leather reinforced cavalry overalls.

officer of the Horse artilery train did used pointed light cavalry schabraque and possibly even also the train riders, for more detail see above mentioned book or Rousselot plate 55

About the gris de fer (and not not fir) – it is interesting to read in a circular to the Conseil d'administration des Corps de toutes armey of 24th of october 1808 :

3. Que le blue – céleste foncé remplacera désormais le gris – de – fer mélangé, poir tus les corps que font usage des draps de cette espéce,

Still in 1813 gris de fer coats are documented as in Napoleon's Last Grande Armee

It could be that light blue and gris de fer or iron grey uniforms were worn at the same time.

just out of interest here a traineur of the Armée du Rhin 1800 – Moreau's winning army, could be horse artillery train as well, see the red pipings and light cavalry sabre – right hand figure nr. 38

Those are nice illustrations von Winterfeldt. Where are they from?

They are from the sketch book of Albrecht Adam, when he was a boy of forteen and sketched Moreaus Army in 1800.
There is a boot about it and also they a shown in the most recent book about Albrecht Adams battle paintings commissioned by Prince Eugene.

Thanks von Winterfeldt. I will have to look out for that. I love contemporary uniform illustrations. I hadn't realised Albrecht Adam started out so young.

Bandit, nice link to a picture of a very impressive park.

Brechtel198, nice use of the French language.

11th ACR, nice link to a very handy uniform guide for wargamers in English with French in brackets.

von Winterfeldt,

Thanks that is helpful!

Cheers,

The Bandit

von Winterfeldt, very good post, the Albrecht Adam illustrations were a bit early in the period for my use, and besides I'm not that pedantic over my model's uniforms as the more skilled painters are.

The book about Albrecht Adam ( I would recommend, it also has the sketches of 1800) is

Papi, Riccard : Eugène und Adam – Der Prinz und sein Maler, Berlin 2012

Numerous illustrations in colour – plenty of interesting detail.

Cheers for that.

There is a preserved Guard artillery train habit in La Musee de L'Armee and it is a much darker blue than I had realised, but nothing like an infantry coat. GW in their Citadel range do a base colour called The Fang (God knows why)…it is perfect……..try it and compare with pics of the exhibit

You have to be careful with preserved French uniforms, because of the colors and the dying process they used. For example, dark green was obtained by dying the coat first dark blue, and then yellow. Over time, the yellow might fade and you're left with a blue coat which does not conform to any period descriptions.

There is a French chasseur a cheval uniform coat which is dark blue. This process happened to that coat.

Further, some regiments would get their uniforms dyed a darker shade than 'regulation' and let if fade over time, wear, and sunlight to fade to the proper shade. For example, units that wore a dark shade of grey, such as the 3d Hussars, would have their dolmans dyed a much darker shade, almost black, and let the wind and rain 'modify' the color to the proper shade.

B

the shade could vary, as I wrote above first iron gray then the dark light blue and again iron grey, here a contemporary immage of a Guard Artillery Train of about 1807

Brechtel and Von Winterfeldt's last two messages are fascinating. For the former, I have no doubt the drivers look so much better in a paler blue than intended. What happens to pigments exposed to UV in 21st Century is one thing…………in 1807 God alone knows! Very good point made.

For the latter, the lad on the left, that is the colour! Like it or not (and it is dull) that is the best rendition I have seen on line (even then slightly less blue than the exhibited one)

French 5th Corps of the Armée du Réserve du Rhin in Hamburg (1806 – 1807): the Uniform Plates of the Suhr Brothers
has drawings of the train troops – see
link