"When did the Bow and Arrow become a "female" weapon?" Topic

Bit of a strange question (sorry if this has been discussed before!), but in all seriousness it appears that nearly any modern works of fantasy or near fantasy has the bow being regulated to the female of the party. I'm curious to know when this idea started becoming a trope?

I know that female archers have been with us for a long time (Artemis of the Greek Pantheon especially), but the bow was still quite a manly weapon back then. Nearly every ancient and medieval civilization had their fair share of famous male archers whether historically or mythologically (especially horse archer cultures like the mongols or the samurai)

So where did this change occur? I do remember that archery eventually became an upper class sport and many women began to fancy playing that, is that a possible historical origin? Or is it more likely that men not being in close combat is now seen as being sissy for fantasy worlds? Or is the idea of women being on the front lines a bit too adventurous for many writers? (Especially since these archer women tend to be a lot less beefy than fantasy men such as Conan)

Other Theories?

I saw a lot of it amongst my gaming group when Cattie-Brie became a mainstay supporting character for the Drizz't series. Carrying a howitzer for a bow it probably seemed more "elegant" than swordplay.

I blame the elves, little pansy tree-huggers…not at all like my Conan-esqe manly sword swinging line backer type RPG characters.

I would say it's simply a less gory weapon than blades. Piercing foes from afar rather than hacking meat is probably more feminine by modern standards…

My take is the origins lie in the various myhtologies that have female deities and demi gods of hunting.

For sculptors and artists, it's the only weapon where a woman has to push her chest out to use it. wink wink.

For sculptors and artists, it's the only weapon where a woman has to push her chest out to use it.

You beat me to it!

Ranger's Apprentice and Tolkien not withstanding…

When did fantasy sculptors decide a sword has to double as a surfboard?

LMFAO

Extra Crispy:

"Ranger's Apprentice and Tolkien not withstanding…

When did fantasy sculptors decide a sword has to double as a surfboard?"

Those super long and wide magic swords are for Lava Surfing.

Scythian Noblewomaen were archers and close-in fighters. a noblewomen would present the head of a enemy to her husband, hence the phrase "She gave good….." You all can finish that sentence.

It is an interesting discussion with a lot of positions to take based on cultural implications.

In other words it is a 'female' or rather 'unmanly' weapon in some cultures but is manly in other.

For example in the Southeastern native nation culture the long spear was considered a defensive weapon associated with women and old men. The bow was a manly weapon but it did not rank as high as the club which was often handed down generationally.

In the Greek culture the bow was not considered a manly kill like the spear and sword. Several Goddesses were shown with it.

Other cultures had a preference of the bow pictured among both women and men.

So many example supporting many theories can be made with everyone being right.

I think Bandolier has it right. Archery is less gritty than hand to hand. It is more plausible for a woman who is physically weaker than a man for her to hurt him with a bow than an ax.

The bonus is women be scantily clad and not in that bulky armor.

how can you argue with this? Debate is at an end gentlemen

Susan in the Narnia books?

The story of the Amazons and their bows of course. Then you have the female Skythians….

maybe i have this wrong but didn't the amazons cut of their left breast so they could pull the bow more efficiently?

a bit misogynistic methinks.

I wonder if the bow became feminine when it was no longer useful for the manly pursuit of hunting eg replaced by gunpowder weapons perhaps.

I don't know if the premise is accurate. In one of the biggest grossing movies of the year there was a bow wielding hero in the team and it was not the female.

When did the chick carrying the bow start to become a trope?

When this dude by the name of Gygax decided that you didn't need any strength to use one, all that mattered was your dexterity!

The trope might have appeared with the movies especially horror movies where its acceptable for females to be the main character and to use the weapon against the baddy.

My vote is for
1) Amazons (and their real world equivalents the Scythians & Mongols)
and
2) Victorian Lady archers – when archery as a sport made a big comeback in the last quarter of the 19th Century it was seen as a sport in which Ladies (capital 'L') could take part without being seen as vulgar.

It is Greek, and maybe a Greek invention. Along with dogs, it is the main weapon of Artemis/Diana, and the weapon of the Amazons*. Anti-Persian propaganda emphasised it, equating arrows with knitting needles.

The Greeks derived a lot of their cultural ideas from the Egyptians, but not that one: in Egyptian culture, the bow is the war weapon – and the primary choice of the warrior pharaoh …

Phil

*even so, Greeks being Greeks, some legends had it that the Amazons removed one of their breasts to be able to use the bow …

Bows, whips, sniper rifles, shuriken … in movies women are supposed to have this über-dexterity which allows them to kill things at range rather than get their hands dirty.

Mythology classess in college taught that the Amazon legend was based on the Skythian women that Greek trders in the Black Sea area were attacked by.

nashville if the two photo are of Korean ladies that would not be a surprise. Archery has been the national sport in that country for men for hundreds of years.

I don't think the premise is valid. I don't see that the bow is depicted as a woman's weapon at all— plenty of fantasy women are depicted without bows, and plenty of fantasy men are depicted with them. To the extent that it happens, I suspect it's more of a case of the type of fantasy adventurer being depicted. For example, a "ranger" type character usually has a bow as a trope weapon, as of course do elves. So when one of the above is depicted as female (both popular choices in modern fantasy art), then naturally the character retains the bow weapon, not because she is a woman but because she is an elf, ranger, etc..
Another factor might be clothing choice by the artist. If an artist choses to clad a female character in armor, then that character will likely possess a sword as her primary weapon. But if the artist chooses less armor (and a lot of artists do) or more formfitting clothing, then logically they are not depicting a front-line warrioress, so they go with a long range weapon— the bow.

Simple as that.

I don't think it's any more complex than comparative advantage: if you accept the premise that the average man is stronger than the average woman, and you should, you are more likely to lose a combat if you rely on the weaker element to win your melees. It makes sense tactically to assign hand to hand to those who will most likely win an engagement than not.

A female phalanx loses to a male phalanx – mass and strength.

A female warrior shooting a bow may not be able to get the range/penetrating power of a male, but could be every bit his equal in accuracy

The Spartans, manly men if ever there were any, despised archers and considered them cowards.

I don't know if the premise is accurate. In one of the biggest grossing movies of the year there was a bow wielding hero in the team and it was not the female.

On the other hand, two other films in the top ten of 2012 (Brave and The Hunger Games) did feature bow wielding heroines.

"maybe i have this wrong but didn't the amazons cut of their left breast so they could pull the bow more efficiently?"

Sort of wrong. The ancients quite excelled at making up spurious etymologies and then passed that along as bogus history of what the even more ancients did. The breast-cutting story is one such example. It riffs on taking the word as 'a-mazon' to mean 'without-breast' and then backfills the plot.

I've read that the myth of the Amazons cutting off a breast* was simply to slander the Amazons and to make the idea of fighting women seem unnatural.

*Assuming, of course, that the Amazons themselves aren't mythical.

I thought the Amazon "one breast" bit was a Victorian era assumption (like knights having to be put on horses with a crane). But I could be in error.

Keep in mind that women are at a distinct disadvantage in hand-to-hand. Not only are they less strong (affecting both how they can be armed and armored), but their bodies bend in ways that aren't necessarily compatible with the fighting techniques practiced by men.

(See _The Armored Rose_ for a great breakdown on the differences, albeit in an SCA context.)

In contrast, a woman doesn't need to do anything special or different to use a bow -- the same techniques that work for a man will work for a woman. She might use a lighter bow, but after a certain point, they're just as effective. (Probably at a shorter range, but still …)

An archer also doesn't generally wear all the heavy armor that an infantryman would, so the idea of a woman with a bow (and maybe on a small horse that couldn't carry a man) is reasonable, even to the ancients.

If you've ever been stung by a bowstring, you'd better believe that a woman is going to want some kind of chest protection. A heavy leather wrap or even a hardened plate is highly recommended for any busty archer. (Or even for MALE archers with big pecs).

The Mongol horsebow certainly gives the maximum advantage to someone with a short draw length. Not sure about the Skythian bow, not my area of study.

"I thought the Amazon "one breast" bit was a Victorian era assumption"

Nope. Classical Greek. The spurious etymology kicked in during the 5th century BCE. The culprit who started the story appears to be Hellanicus of Lesbos.

Amazons are mentioned in Homer, and other later literature with no reference to being half-endowed. Plenty of depictions in art from the 8th century BCE onwards, all fully endowed.

link

Lion, I assume you're talking about someone who's shooting kyudou style, because otherwise, you should not be hitting your chest when you're drawing. Typically, you are overdrawing the bow if you're drawing across your chest. Kyudou is different and deliberately overdraws, and yes, the Japanese do have a chest protector piece for that purpose. But for standard Western-style archery, there's no need.

But for standard Western-style archery, there's no need.

Took the words out of my mouth, though if the female had absurdly large artificial breasts (the kind which won't strap down) it could be a problem. Women of this type are rare in history but tend to show up disproportionately in war-gaming, rather like Tiger tanks.

This is an interesting conversation for ms as I just got my wife and daughters, all of whom play D&D, longbows for Christmas.

Thanks

Amalric -- longbows, or standard recurves? You'll want to make sure you get them the correct gloves if you purchased longbows, as you shoot arrows from a longbow off your hand, instead of off the shelf (there is no shelf on a longbow) or off an arrow rest.

Well, I never had an issue with shooting an arrow off my hand with a longbow. Though I certainly have had the docs complain about trying to stick an IV in my hands, too…

The ladies might want a glove, especially if they have thin skin/sensitive hands.

Well, I never had an issue with shooting an arrow off my hand with a longbow.

One of the guys I shoot with fires without glove or rest, but with a Mongol bow. He claims there's a trick to it -- if you nock your arrow in the right place, it'll pop up off of your hand as the arrow's leaving the bow.

It's a neat trick, if you can pull it off.

Meic, you're right -- he says that. I've also seen him swear and cuss when he hasn't nocked in the right spot, so there's that to consider. (;

Gents
Thanks for the advice about the gloves