"Did Lord Tywin suspect who Arya was?" Topic

From HBO's Game of Thrones, second season.
The Lord Tywin/Arya scenes are not to be found in the books. These scenes are new for the season, and are fan favorites.

Arya is a prisoner of the Evil Guys, and Gendry is about to be tortured to death when Tywin Lannister shows. He admonishes the Evil Guys who are wasting good labor. (That seems to be a recurring theme in fantasy literature. "Good Evil help is hard to come by.")
He immediately spots Arya as a girl and learns how smart she is.

Later, they have several Cute scenes where Tywin is avuncular, and Arya is adorable.
Note that their families are bitter enemies.

I happen to believe that Tywin very quickly figures out who Arya Stark is. Everybody knows she is missing, and her description is certainly widespread.
Tywin is no dummy. He figures out that she is a Northener, and high born.
My guess is that it amuses him to not seize her. It could also be that he is just a little bit tired of being a totally ruthless SOB. He LIKES Arya. Who wouldn't? She reminds him of his daughter. So, he will not interfere in her attempt to get home, but will not hurt her, nor aid her. If she is the adventuress like the Targaeryan sisters she admire so much, well, it amuses him. He is weary of war. Let her be.

I COULD ask opinion on any of the numerous GoT fan sites, but it's more fun here.

I suspect they just had an excellent actor in Charles Dance and so they wrote him more scenes and did more development of his character.

SPOILER!
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It's going to make it all the more poignant when Tyrion plugs him.

Yes, I am looking forward the eventual plugging of Tywin by Tyrion. I hope they keep Tyrion's line for that scene. It is one of the best quips of the entire series.

hmmmm, good points.

As smart as he supposedly is, seems unlikely he would not suspect her…

However none of that was in the books, so I suspect T Meier is correct.

I agree. He is way too sharp to miss the clues.

Man I miss the series. I hope the next series doesn't take too long.

Yes, it sort of destroys his character to assume he doesn't know that Arya is Arya. In a way it's even more insidious to think that he knows who she is but still declines to nab her. He probably wrote something like "The game's afoot!" in his diary the day he met her.

I think he did. I get the feeling of resentment or disappointment from Tywin about his children, frustration at the very least. Arya is sharpand I think he would feel a connection with her.

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By the time I reached book 4, I began to become quite sympathetic to the Lannisters. It was Greyjoy's crimes that tipped me off that Tywin navigates a well-hated ship through treacherous waters.

House Lannister is no better nor worse than any of the others. You could argue that Stark were in some sense "noble", but the Northerners that follow them are profoundly dishonourable all up and down the Riverlands and the Green Fork.

PLOT SPOILER

The complete annihilation of House Stark by Walder Frey and the Boltons was vintage Tywin. On the other hand, (no pun intended) I have become fond of Cersei, and find Tyrion a loathsome, self-obsessed twerp. That is Martin's intent, that your view of the characters is always shifting.

I think Cersei was profoundly disturbed by the fate of the Targaryen children, as well as being stuck with Robert in a loveless and cruel sham of a marriage (and Robert was cruel). She acts out panic most of the time, and stuffs it up I guess.

I can't see Tywin knowing who Arya was – except to note she's someone of interest. In the books, the Lannisters put an impostor in place and marry her off to Roose Bolton to seal the North….

…but the Northerners that follow them are profoundly dishonourable all up and down the Riverlands and the Green Fork.

Boy, you got that right!

Hasn't that sorta been the whole take on Tyrion up to the end of last season. He was self obsessed but stepped up during the Siege only to have that nobility never acknowledged by anyone. Then he falls back to being a bit player.

Thanks,

John

Tywin is pragmatic and a father who will take care of his family even if he is not happy with their paths. He is not selfish Jaime, cruel Jofree, cynical Cersei. I get the feeling he suspected but was genuinely fond of her.
The complexity of the characters is what I enjoy most about this show.

I have become fond of Cersei, and find Tyrion a loathsome, self-obsessed twerp.

Yeah! I mean all she ever did was amorally pursue her every inclination with complete disregard to the consequences! And Tyrion should just get over having a genetic defect which has caused most people, including his own father to dump on him his whole life despite his being a decent and capable human being, sheesh, grow up already! He needs to stop trying to help people just because they appeal to his loathsome self-obsessed sense of right and wrong and become a more effective, worthwhile person, like the rest of his family.

Tyrion is my favorite character. I think the actor is incredible but I tend to enjoy most of his work. Upon reflection, perhaps self-obsessed isn't the right term. He is constantly conscious of his physical limitations due to his family and those around him. He tends to show ongoing flashes (some longer and some shorter) of his sense of fairplay and nobility of character. His peak came during the Siege and his rallying the troops at the end. The fact that his father and the rest of the City ignore that has to be a blow and helps lead to what's to come.

Frankly, I cannot remotely grasp how anyone would not at least admire some part of Tyrion's character on the show. He is more down to earth than any of the royals in any faction. Certainly the guy I'd like to go have a beer with.

Thanks,

John

I have become fond of Cersei

Is such a thing possible? I'm with Tom on this. Tyrion went from bitter, resentful hanging-on (with his lifelong treatment and the story of his first 'wife', it's not difficult to understand) to do great and good things at King's Landing, when authority happened to fall in his lap. (Hand of the Hand, so to speak); only to have the city and most of his family spit in his face once more. He's also Jaime's saving grace, at least early on: in whatever ways Jaime is a monster, he doesn't hate his little brother.

Cersei… you could make the arguments that she's doing what she's doing to protect Jaime and set up her kids as high as possible. Although even if her actions were pared down to that, there's always the impression that her 'good intentions' are really about dumping on anyone who looked at her funny, and about keeping a tight grip on her things and her position.

…you could make the arguments

Cersei's predicament stems entirely from her deliberate treasonous adultery, enacted for no better reason then that she felt insulted that Robert Baratheon or any man, could possibly prefer another woman to her. This on top of her incestuous liaison with her brother (which is by comparison a mild transgression, that would only have destroyed her and shamed her immediate family were it known before her marriage). She's the poster child for recklessly idiotic willfulness. She's a spoiled child, a very dangerous spoiled child.

So, dumping on anyone who looked at her funny, and keeping a tight grip on her things and her position.

The scences with Tywin and Arya are a bit odd.

In the book its Roose Bolton and Arya which made them far more tense as Bolton's cruetly can be set off by the smallest slight.

Tywin would never have even noticed a cup servor and if he had the slighest inkling she was Arya would have seized her immedialty as hostage to keep Jamie – his "true" heir safe.

His sense of house honor is all consuming to the point of cruel lessons inflicted on Tyrone to burn this concept home. You can't understand Tyrone without knowing what Tywin did to him. The jolly Tywin of the mini-serias makes no sense in this context.

Interesting scences but they belong in a different serias.

TomT

Based on some of the comments above, I've been reading a very different series of books form the rest of people:

First, Tyrion – Tywin got rid of Tysha to protect Tyrion from a devious gold-digger, oh but Tyrion was having none of that, so he hooks up with Shae, a devious gold-digger who was quite prepared to see him die.

Tyrion, the dwarf everbody hates. If he was so smart, he'd have known that there was NO FUTURE for him in King's Landing, but nooooo…. he has to go there all over again, and even convince himself that somehow he's good at the game, and he'll save King's Landing, and all will worship him. Utter crap, he played a dumb game, and got nailed for it. Did he honestly think people would be GRATEFUL that he'd saved them? His saving King's Landing made everyone hate him even more – a blind man could've seen that coming. If he was such a player, he needed to read the 48 Laws of Power…

He should have joined the Night's Watch – they could really have used him, and he'd have done well there, but no, he wanted booze and hookers, but oh, no, wait, he wanted to be someone important.

Cersei, Tywin and Jaime are about the only honest people in King's Landing. "everyone who isn't us is our enemy"…

By the way, Cersei never, ever loved Robert. She only ever loved one man, Jaime. Jaime joined the King's Guard to get out of having to marry, and since she was betrothed to Robert against her wishes, Jaime got to be close to her. She lived her life in terror of having her children or her love for Jaime discovered. She risked it ALL.

No one in the books is a saint, all are flawed. ABout the only true heroes I've met so far are Brienne of Tarth, and Jon Snow. Feel sorry for them. But Tyrion went up against the best in the business, murdered his fair share of people while Hand of the King (remember the singer? among others…) and got comprehensively outplayed. He is no better than Cersei…

Makes for an AWESOME campaign game though!

I've been reading a very different series of books form the rest of people

And rather than think you have misconstrued them, you believe everyone else has.

There is absolutely no evidence Tysha was a gold-digger. You can make this assumption only if you assert no woman could ever actually love Tyrion for himself.

Tyrion is foolish/idealistic enough to believe if he just shows people what he's really like they will accept him. Again there is no evidence he wants acclaim, only acceptance of his value. He was stupid only to the extent he was not cynical.

In the books I read Tyrion felt he could be more use to the Night's watch from Kings Landing at the time and Lord Mormont agreed. There is no evidence he went for 'booze and hookers' until after the episode with Tysha.

Your definition of 'honest' is breathtaking.

We agree Cersei did not love Robert. I don't see anything in the books to indicate she ever really loved anyone except her children but it is all beside the point. She didn't deliberately and repeatedly betray Robert Baratheon and commit treason against the kingdom out of love but pique, this is clearly stated in the books out of her own mouth, re-read the conversation between her and Eddard Stark in the Godswood of Kings Landing.

As you say all the characters have weaknesses, Tyrion is idealistically naive, a flaw generally accounted noble. He is not so much out-played as just has rotten luck. One of the recurrent themes of the books is no matter how clever you are, luck or fate can swat you like a fly. His decisions are nearly all well-considered. Cersei is a willful brat, deliberately blind to the painfully obvious direct results of her actions and her own lack of perspicacity. The list of her idiocies and denials is long.

You can of course construct a world-view which gives the two characters equal value, you can construct a world-view which makes no distinction between red and green but sooner or later you are going to have a crash.

Tywin was shaped by his own childhood. His father was weak and it cost his entire family terribly. In particular, Tytos had a haughty mistress who all but ruled Casterly Rock. Tywin grew up watching his house's fortunes shattered by his father's weakness and malleability.

He hated being laughed at. And from his childhood experience, it was clear he'd learned a bitter lesson about the consequences of not being feared.

Then he served Aerys. Tywin ruled the realm in his name for decades, and by all accounts did a good job. In return, Aerys slighted him continually, most notably on Tywin's wedding night, when Aerys took undisclosed and ungentlemanly "liberties" with Tywin's bride.

Tyrion is clearly on a path to become like his father. The mockery at him came not from an incompetent dad, but from his own deformity and his love of the greedy and unprincipled Shae. For a cruel and incompetent and ungrateful monarch, he had Joffrey instead of Aerys.

As for Tywin and Arya? In the TV show, they've made some serious changes. It's dangerous to judge the events in the series based on the characters in the books. It's tough because the Tywin of the books would have to have taken Arya hostage, even if she were just a minor northron noble. Or, he wouldn't have noticed her at all.

I think the show is trying to have it both ways. He suspects, so he gets to have scenes with her. But he's not sure, so he doesn't take her prisoner and put her to the Question to find out who she is. The problem is that the "real" Tywin would have acted on suspicion alone. I'm thinking the writers didn't so they could explore the interaction of the characters without changing the plot more than they have.

Tywin was shaped by his own childhood.

That's another of Matrin's themes, he agrees with Jean Renoir: "The real hell of life is everyone has his reasons."

So whether you sympathize more with someone like Cersei or Tyrion is about you and what you think or feel. That's not at all the same as to say there is no real difference, but the difference is a reflection of your own 'reasons'. Different moral views have different consequences to the individual and the society. Personally I'd much rather live in a society where Tyrion's moral outlook is the rule than where Cersei's is so for me Tyrion is a better person than Cersei.

Of course any of the Starks, except perhaps Catelyn or Rickon would be better still.

As for the Starks, would Robb have made a good King, had he lived?

Cersei WANTED to love Robert. It certainly would have made life easier. In his youth, he was a handsome man, a fierce warrior. He was the answer to a maiden's dream.
But his true character showed. I think that Lyanna recognized his true character, and ran away with Rhaegar. She was NOT kidnapped and raped, as Robert believed, and as we are lead to believe for the first book or two.
Which of course leads to the speculation that the parents of Jon Snow are Lyanna and Rhaegar. Ned's promise to his dying sister was to protect Jon from Robert. Robert would have slain him.
It's easy to see why Cersei hated Robert, and her own personality got further warped by this.

would Robb have made a good King

That depends, do you mean would he have been a good man who was king or would he have had a reign of high benefit on average to the people. To the former I'd say yes, the latter is largely a matter of chance, like chief executives of our own day who, despite their large bonuses rarely have much objective impact on the bottom line, a king rarely reigns over a prosperous time due to his own exertions.

…his true character

I think another of Martin's themes is people don't so much have a single nature as a range of possibilities depending on circumstances. Perhaps Robert would have been reformed by Lyanna, he seemed to really love her and to want to be worthy of her. She however didn't want the job.

It's easy to see why Cersei hated Robert

But that's not the reason she gave, it was because he'd called her Lyanna on their wedding night. It was the insult to her pride, for that she deliberately took actions which could only have the most horrendous consequences.

would Robb have made a good King

That depends,

Was Henry V a good king? Was Richard III?
I don't think Robb thought much beyond avenging Dad.
did that help the people? I don't really think that anyone thought about that much. Did anyone?
Robb was not as bad as Gregor Clegane, but that is not a very high bar.

I meant to ask if Richard I Lionheart was a Good King.

did that help the people? I don't really think that anyone thought about that much

No, the medieval attitude was more about duty. Do your duty and God will make it come out right, though it might not look that way to you. They recognized that peace and prosperity were devoutly to be wished but also that they were in God's hands, not their own. That's one of the main differences between the medieval and modern world view, we think we are in control.

What I was asking is what you mean by a 'good king', to a medieval mind he'd be a great if tragic king, to a modern mind he'd be a reckless young fool, unfit to manage a 7/11 much less a kingdom.

The people remember Richard I as a good king, because he was never around to oppress them.

The people remember Richard I as a good king…

I don't know whether the people did, seems to me their attitude would be summed up more by the farmer who was told to clear off his land before the battle of Naseby.

"Who's fighting?"

"Why, the King and Parliament!"

"Wot, are those two at it then?"

What we have about the people's attitude was written by the literate hangers-on of nobles or the clergy, about as reliable as a corporate promotional brochure.

Richard certainly had good publicists.

Agree with Meier.

Let me add though that Cersei is a very unreliable narrator. She lies to everyone, even if not especially herself.

Some characters in ASoIaF are genuinely, mustache-twistingly evil. Cersei, for one, and Gregor certainly is another. Joffrey and Aerys. They go out of their way to cause evil for no better reason than their own wickedness.

Others are antagonists rather than villains. Tywin and (coming soon!) Tyrion fall into that bucket. Stannis is another.

Littlefinger remains a bit of a mystery, since we're not totally sure of what he's doing or why yet. From the bits and pieces of his history we've seen, he probably falls into the second group.

But the bottom line is that some of these characters are in deed Just Plain Evil.