"Ancient Rules" Topic

I have been wargaming for over 50 years but dropped in and out of it several times over the years. Most of my wargaming has been Napoleonic but I am planning to create a Roman army and a few opponents, starting with Ancient Britons.

I am probably doing this back to front, but I have firm ideas on what I want my armies to look like, but just need a set of rules which will work with them.

All my figures are 1:72 plastics (from a variety of manufacturers) and I want to use an approximate figure ratio of 1:30, so a Roman Cohort would be 18 figures organised in 6 centuries of 3 figures. I plan to have all my close order Romans at 15mm per figure and do not mind doubling up centuries to produce a cohort battle line with 9 figures in 2 ranks a 135mm frontage.

I plan to organise my Ancient Britains in warbands of 30 figures (equivalent to 1,000 real men) or possibly sometimes in larger multiples of that (to create a bit of variety. I would want my Ancient Britons to have 20mm per figure (to represent their looser formation) and a 30 figure warband would be organised in 6 bases, each of 5 figures, effectively in 2 ranks but scattered to produce 3 front, 2 rear – or 2 front 3 rear – or a "dice" configuration of 2,1,2, so as to create a "mob" look. Each base would be 60mm x 40mm. I would normally expect these to operate at least 2 bases deep, so a typical warband would be 180mm wide x 80mm deep (or possibly 120mm wide x 120mm deep).

I want to find a set of ancient rules which does not insist that all bases are the same size, or that all units are the same size.

I am used to casualty removal but am quite happy with casualty markers.

I would welcome advice.

Rod

Try Basic Impetus. It covers ancients well. Ideally, all the figures in the unit are on one large base, which is the unit footprint, but how many figures per base and their placement on it is completely up to you, so you could just use one big base, or go with the basing scheme you had in mind and just use 4 bases per unit. It is free to download, as are the army lists.

Phil

Hail Caesar is very forgiving of non standard bases sizes. It is great fun as well giving historical results IMHO. For the above it sounds like the cohorts would be Standard units and the warbands Large units.

figure ratios are SO last decade ;-)

Hail Caesar – a unit is a unit, easy, large followin, and the book is inspiring.

Cheers
Jaz
6sided.net – More than 200 Wargaming Bloggers Can't Be Wrong!

Although it does have standardized basing, you might want to look at Tactica. It uses large units in the 30 to 40 figure range, as you gave described, and bases the frontage on a similar number of milimeters per figure. In fact, when I started reading your description of how you are organizing the units, I thought, "this sounds like Tactica."

War and Conquest – simply the finest set of ancient rules on the market.

Easy to learn (hard to master) and great fun to play.

Raglan

Try going old school with a copy of WRG 5th.

Copes with pretty much all you can throw at it, and you can say the figures are whatever ratio you want.

I did see a percentage dice mod that meant bookeeping was reduced, as whole figures only were removed.

Tactica. War and Conquest. Clash of Empires. WAB. All figure removal games (I think). Check out freewargamesrules.co.uk for other free offerings.

Impetus does require single base elements of the same frontage. Hail Caesar is also an element based game of sorts though multiple elements make up formations.

As you are clearly an old school gamer, have you considered going back to the old school? WRG 6th has been reprinted by John Curry Events and comes with the "Purple Primer", that Airfix Hobby book on Ancients Wargaming. As well, they've reprinted the last version of Tony Bath's Ancients Wargame. wargaming.co

Thanks for all the comments. I have got Tony Bath's Ancient Wargaming on my bookshelf (and actually played at his house in Southampton when I started wargaming as a teenager).

I also have copies of WRG 5th Ed, WRG 7th Ed, DBM, DBA, Newbury Fast Play, Warlord, FoG, WAB and Hail Caesar, but the only one of those I have played is a couple of games of Hail Caesar which were enjoyable. I am thinking of ways of reconciling my desired basing with Hail Caesar and so have not totally ruled it out, because it does seem very good in lots of ways.

Part of the problem will be finding other people in my local wargames club (Tunbridge Wells) prepared to play whatever I finally decide on. There are several playing Hail Caesar but not other ancient games.

I will look at Tactica, which I had not heard of before.

Many thanks again,

Rod

Basing is really not an issue with Hail Caesar, quite why nobody came up with such a simple and effective end to the gamers basing dilemma before beats me.

Another vote for Hail Caesar. Flexible basing able to cope with most element/single figure basing.

Have played HC with 1/72 figures and it worked perfectly.

Cheers

James

Another vote for Hail Caesar. I've had a few games of 60x30mm based Gauls versus 40x40mm based Romans and it didn't affect game play one bit.

Of course both of us were being sensible in a friendly game (always the best ones).

Enjoy.

Agreed with Hail Caesar. Its laissez faire approach to basing is simply no nonsense and lets you get on with building up your units and playing. Plus, it's a ruleset that encourages customisation to suit your collection and/or scale, not the other way round.

Also agree with Hail Caesar

quite why nobody came up with such a simple and effective end to the gamers basing dilemma before beats me.

This is possible because HC (and other similar systems) break the mould by only considering the unit as a whole rathr than how many figures it has and/or their frontage.

This is possible because HC (and other similar systems) break the mould by only considering the unit as a whole rathr than how many figures it has and/or their frontage.

I'm not that familiar with HC, but does this approach to basing not cause problem for multiple unit combats ? How does it handle 2 units vs 1 unit, or 3 vs 1, or 3 vs 2 ?

I'm not that familiar with HC, but does this approach to basing not cause problem for multiple unit combats ? How does it handle 2 units vs 1 unit, or 3 vs 1, or 3 vs 2

Additional units provide support to the fighting unit.

I want to find a set of ancient rules which does not insist that all bases are the same size, or that all units are the same size.

My two favorite ancients sets might fit your needs, or at least part of it.

Hail Caesar (as others have noted) has you covered from the get-go. Frontage does, in fact, matter in HC, but more at the unit rather than the stand level.

Might of Arms allows for variable unit sizes (with units containing more stands simply having a higher point value), but frontages are fairly important, so basing really should be consistent.

Neither, however, are figure removal sets.

Doug

For a nice simple set you might also look at Neil Thomas (AMW) either in 'Ancient and Medieval Wargaming' or 'Wargaming an Introduction' … the former has more chrome, the latter has rules for periods up to WW2 (but the basic ancients game is the same as AMW) …

Provides a good historical game for many eras which benefits from being adapted to historical scenarios. Issues of balance make it less popular with players who like tournament style equality.

It does have bases units and armies all the same size (4 bases per unit, 8 units per side), but I have found the mechanics work well enough with variable unit sizes and uneven forces (but that is all down to the game organiser: don't blame Neil if it doesn't work!)

If you are getting back into ancients, don't forget to give the Society of Ancients a look. Still going strong nearly 50 years after the aforementioned Tony Bath set it up …

Great forum, great community and 6 issues of Slingshot per annum for your subscription …

Phil
Ancients on the Move

No one has yet recommended Newbury Fast Play Ancients. Good.

John,

I used to umpire Newbury Fast Play Napoleonics at Colours in the 1990s. I have the Newbury Fast Play Ancient rules and will read them again.

I would quite like to be flexible enough to play several sets of rules with the same figures, as rules go in and out of fashion, and it may well depend upon what other people at my local wargames club (Tunbridge Wells) want to play.

I think I can use my figures for Hail Caesar, and will also look at Tactica 2 when it comes out (later this year according to the designer, Arty).

Rod

I think I can use my figures for Hail Caesar, and will also look at Tactica 2 when it comes out (later this year according to the designer, Arty).

Just a word to the wise – the imminent release of Tactica 2 has been promised repeatedly during the past ten years, most recently for April 2012.

Cheers,
Scott

Scott,

I have only just come across Tactica (due to recommendations on this thread) but having joined their Yahoo group and exchanged posts with Tactic's designer Arty Conliffe, I am reasonably confident of its being released later this year.

That is fine by me since I have planned to finish my Napoleonic Peninsular War set-up this year and then build some extra terrain, including some PaperTerrain buildings. I wil probably start organising and painting my ancient figures in the Spring or early Summer of 2013.

Rod

To add to Phil's comments – if you get the March issue of Slingshot (issue 281) there is an extended interview with several of the current rules designers – for Hail Caesar, War & Conquest, WAB2, Clash of Empires, DBx, Impetus, Lost Battles – on their respective design philosophies. It's a kind of sequel to an article published in 2008 (issue 258) with a similar cast.

The next issue (283) is our annual Battle Day issue, which will include battle reports on this year's battle – Plataea – and which is an opportunity to compare rules in practice – probably 8 battle reports with different rulesets. Should go to print in a couple of weeks.

Doesn't answer the question, but it's a decent way of getting information about current rulesets in use.

Another vote for Impetus. Why not download a set from Dadi and Polombo website and give them a try out? They are free, and play really well.

Rod

members of the Gravesend club play War & Conquest quite regularly, so if you want to check it out, you can do so there quite easily. It certainly fits most if not all your needs.
At our local club we use plenty of 20mm armies, and several will be in action at the next War & Conquest gaming day on 19th August, details on the Scarab web site (and folks from your area will be coming across)

kind regards

Rob Broom
scarabminiatures.com
warandconquest.co.uk

Classical Hack and it's variants might suit. Unit size is not fixed. Stands are of nominally equal frontages and varied numbers of figure depending on troop type and order, but the game will play fine with differently based figures.

War and Conquest sounds better and better to me, the more I read about it.

I have found that basing is generally much more flexible than rule designers make it out to be. As long as both players are in agreement as to who is fighting whom and what has moved where and how far almost any basing style can be made to work with almost any rules.

Classical Hack and it's variants might suit. Unit size is not fixed. Stands are of nominally equal frontages and varied numbers of figure depending on troop type and order, but the game will play fine with differently based figures.

War and Conquest sounds better and better to me, the more I read about it.

I have found that basing is generally much more flexible than rule designers make it out to be. As long as both players are in agreement as to who is fighting whom and what has moved where and how far almost any basing style can be made to work with almost any rules.

Try "Ancient Warfare" by Terry Gore. Very flexible with very good command procedure. Can be found at OMM:
link

Tactica is a totally pre-programmed wargame experience imho. Nicely produced for a decent read, but Im surprised it still has aficionados here.

Hail Caeser is bright and shiny & new still, so it's this year's fashion. Next year it will be something else. To be fair its a nice game if you spend a bit of time putting your own touches around the rules and don't mind a bit of finishing off.

I was surprised to see Might of Arms recommended, as they are a fairly low key set of rules. They have definite old school origins, but are a good example of what WRG 6th SHOULD have turned into. They are streamlined and great fun. There is a 2nd ed coming along any time now, and I'll be getting a set. See the Yahoo Group for these rules and some free stuff.

Impetus is a smouldering but brightening flame; it's radically different from the others listed here. It looks different on the table, you dont need a huge number of figures to play, its free to get into the game system with lots of downloads and support, and although the rules look simple enough, there are very subtle and sophisticated interactions which give a surprising amount of variety and depth to a game.

If I was starting now, it would be Impetus. Try 'em – you have nothing to lose.

Dadi & Polombo site for more info and free stuff.

I had not realised that there were so many Ancient wargame rules out there. I am going to have to ration myself.

Rod