"Correct Bavarian Blue?" Topic

Why is this not the correct shade of blue for Bavarian Infantry, as opposed to the usual lighter, more cornflower blue usually painted?

I've some Bavarian's moving up to painting que…

New Bavarian uniforms were very similar to this darker blue but were apt to fade very fast. The dye used produced an saturated blue shade and as it faded it became an unsaturated lighter blue (grey blue or cornflower blue). Most collectors like the cornflower blue look, personally some where between the two would suffice for me with a touch of highlight in cornflower blue.

regards
dave

Thats a tough question. Personally I found some pictures of cornflowers and picked a blue that matched.

I like the lighter cornflower blue as it distinguishes those Bavarians a bit more in that sea of French and Prussian blue.

Has anyone living today ever seen a new, unfaded Bavarian Napoleonic infantry uniform or piece of cloth from one?

Artists make mistakes with colour, paints, inks etc can change colour over time, reproductions of original paintings can introduce errors in the colour and different computer screens display colours in slightly different ways.

It is hard to tell the exact colour of any historical uniform, so how do you know that the plates that you have posted are an accuarate representation of the colour of Bavarian Napoleonic infantry uniforms?

Pick one and stay with it. Let anyone that complains prove you wrong

This question comes up all the time. I've been collecting Bavarians for a very long time. They were the army that got me into wargaming & figure collecting to begin with.

I think that the lighter blue comes from some of the earlier publications like Osprey (easily accessible) to newer gamers & collectors had shown them in lighter blues. And also that keeping in mind the smaller the figure scale the darker your blue will appear so if you paint them a darker blue you won't be able to tell them easily from the French & Prussians (like Rhino Co said).

I would recommend Vallejo's Andrea Blue.

@colinjallen: I would have to say not likely on the "new" uniforms! However, here are some links to pics of gently used ones!

This last one will show the grey-blue that paint pig pointed out.

Enjoy!

Interesting photos that bring back memories of a great visit there; however, I have to wonder about two things:

1. How sure can we be that the colours have not changed over time? There are some every interesting French dragoon uniforms on display where the green has altered to blue;).

2. Are they 100% confirmed as original uniforms; again, there are many copies and reporductions in museums. These look a little too pristine to be 200 years old. Do you have any information on their provenance?

Personally, I doubt that Baverian uniforms were the light cornflower blue so beloved of wargamers but neither am I sure what the colour was other than that it was somewhere between that and the dark French blue.

The uniforms shown in the photos may well be the actual colour but my point is that it is almost impossible to tell.

Hmmm, seems like something close to the color on the plates, not darker, pehaps greyed lighter, to suit personal preference for the figures being painted is the way to go…

@colinjallen: "gently used" was a bit of a joke, sir!

There really is little hard evidence of anything to be found so in the end you do the best you can with what you have. Pristine? Yeah, they are very nice (::wink::)

Bottom line, they are your figs so paint 'em how you like 'em.

As Saber6 says let anyone who disagrees show you the proof your wrong. :-)

Me, I go with the Andrea Blue (vallejo) everytime.

Isn't true that all flat figures show the lighter cornflower blue? That includes some which go back to the Napoleonic era and all (and there are thousands in some of the battle dioramas) all those in the Bavarian Army Museum in Ingolstadt?

TMP link

As with uniforms of any army in any era (even in this modern, colorfast age), there is no "correct" color. Different dye batches, different suppliers, aging, fading, weathering, repairs, reissues, etc, ad infinitum. Any color that's in the basic ballpark would undoubtedly have been seen on the real battlefield.

I stand by Coat d'Arms Dark Blue, used for my Bavarians, it being a brighter shade of dark blue. noticeable close up, than the other blues in my collection of paints that i use for the other dark blue nations.

Hmmm, seems like something close to the color on the plates, not darker, pehaps greyed lighter, to suit personal preference for the figures being painted is the way to go…

Every commission job where I have had Bavarians the customer has stipulated the lighter "sort of" cornflower blue option. Even though to my mind they should be a darker desaturated blue I paint them the way I have been requested and fair enough.
link a WIP of figures I recently painted which matched the owners existing Bavarians, too light for my tastes but the customer got a colour match and was happy (note that it is a lighter colour but still desaturated).

If these figures are for you then barenakedleadies has provided you with some lovely examples of period uniforms. I base my preferred colour on the lower example (the officer uniform) and highlight and shade from that as a base. This gives me a blue which is easily distinguishable from the French (no examples to show, sorry).

regards
dave

dont forget to post them when your finished

"If these figures are for you then colinjallen has provided you with some lovely examples of period uniforms."

Not me, guv'nor!

Not me, guv'nor!

Ooooer!

Right you are, nothing to see here move along, move along……….

I use the Foundry Bavarian Blue triad and looks good enough for me. Definitely the only Napoleonic figures I'll ever do.

Just a few comments from a former chemist part time sheep farmerwho has a wife that does dying, spinning & weaving.

The blue dyestuff during this period was indigo/Woad. It was extracted from the plant by fermination (oxidation) into a blue powder, which was stable and not water soluable. To dye a fabric, you needed to reduce it to "indigo white" which was water soluble and would bond to the mordant sites on the wool or coton fabric. Once you had this greenish fluid, you soaked the fabric in it, let the reaction take place and the took it out into the air. The fabric starts off colorless and then as the air oxidizes the dye (that dye being either attached to the fabric chemically or just physically absorbed into it) into the blue form. The process is tricky and if the pH, % of chemical reduction, alkilinity, temperature, greasyness of the path, concentrations, time or amount of expensive dyestuff are off, you will get different results.

The chemically attached dye is color fast and will not wash out. The physicaly absorbed dye is color fast but will slowly wash out of the fabric. So after dying something it might be very dark blue, but repeated washings will soften the colour and it will turn into a medium blue. I think that perhaps the presevered virgin uniforms have not been subject to much environment and may have been very well made examples. Cheap, government-issued uniforms quickly became faded to the cornflower blue. Exposure to sunlight bleaches out dyes, since the light energy is absorbed by the dye and oxidizes them. (That is how they used to bleach grey/off-white fabric to white).

A current example is "bluejenes" which were originally cheap, coarse cotton workpants which were dyed with indigo.

It is possible that the Prussian & French blue colours were darkened by adding addtional mortants (often a chemical salt that bonded to the wooll and connected it to the dye) to change the colour of the fabric into a darker shade. (indigo doesn't need this mortant)

@1968billsfan {Alex} – That's a very good explanation for ignorant types like me.

Paintpig. Nice job, and yes that blue is for me. Was not aware you ran a paint service. And thanks for confirming that I am not alone!

Looks like that fella's battle cry is "rally 'round the vegemite"!

@1968billsfan

Wow, thanks for that explanation. I found it very illuminating.

I'm a big Cornflower blue fan. The colour drew me to Bavarians since I saw a cover of Wargames Illustrated with a picture of Bavarians marching into a town circa 1809.

woolen cloth was not washed in the Napoleonic times.
the Bavarian ultra light blue was created by uniform plates of Lienhardt and Humbert and from then on dominated wrongly the shade of the typical Bavarian infantry coat.

woolen cloth was not washed in the Napoleonic times.

So what about rain, sweat and variable quality of cloth as described above?

Might not be washed (with soap), but it was certainly rained on and sun-bleached.

Will do Dave. I will go somewhere lighter than Indigo and certainly darker than cornflower. Actually, my "Union" blue washed on black primed/white drybrushed figs looks just like the lower plate on my 6mm, light enough to distinguish from the French.

@barnakedleadies Thanks for the comments, yes I dabble in commissions.

Looks like that fella's battle cry is "rally 'round the vegemite"!

The breakfast spread of champions

Vegemite is just Marmite that was condemmed as unfit for human consumption.

"As with uniforms of any army in any era (even in this modern, colorfast age), there is no "correct" color. Different dye batches, different suppliers, aging, fading, weathering, repairs, reissues, etc, ad infinitum. Any color that's in the basic ballpark would undoubtedly have been seen on the real battlefield."

Agreed. For this exact reason I vary the shades of paint I use. I have French Dragoons & Chasseurs ŕ Cheval in *slightly* variable greens, as an example.

Cheers,

The Bandit

what about dirt and smoke from camp fires, this darkens bright colours.
In older threats there were plenty of contemporary prints attached to the discussion, look at them and then decide, no ultra bright blue for sure.
I agree that there is not the right colour but there is certainly a trend which should be followed – and not an error introduced in late 19th century.
so forget Herbert Knötel or Lienhardt and Humbert and look at contempoary prints like those of Seele, Augsburger Bilder, Albrecht Adam or Kobell.

I'm with you on that VonW, your posts are always factual and obviously well studied. Certainly I would be more inclined to view the contemporary plates as more accurate- Guessing the effects of age are less likely to create innacuracy than the effects of untimely reproduction!

I use the Foundry triad of Cornflower blue, I was using Vallejo Magic Blue mixed with Electric Blue but it seemed a little too light.

If it helps, when I painted my Bavarians I used the blue in the BMW badge as my reference.
After all what does the 'B' in BMW stand for ;)
Stu :)

If you paint Bavarians in dark blue, why not just do Wuttemberg?

In the lighter blue, they are instantly recognisable as Bavarians.

But each to their own.

Bavarians are not in dark blue either – but the term light blue had a different meaning in the Napoleonic time than today. Our immagination is currupted by very bad secondary sources and their repeats.
In case I like to paint Bavarians, I would look at the contemporary prints, as well as on existing coats in Ingoldstadt and then base the coat colour approximatly on those but not on Herbert Knötel (his father Richard did much better on this), Lienhardt and Humbert, etc.
For those who are interested – invest some money and buy
Die Bayerische Armee 1806 – 1813 by Bunde, Gärtner, Stein, you only have to ignore the shade Courcelle is giving for the coats and look at the contemporary pictures provided in this book.

<puts tongue in cheek>

So Bavaria provided the French Legere units with their uniforms ?

Nashville did already provide an excellent link, lots of pictures and very good discussion.