"Army Painter Dip" Topic

I'm thinking of using this for the first time.

I understand there are three shades – light , medium and dark

What do the different shades tend to get used for?

Dave,

Most people use strong tone for everything.

Be aware – it is smelly, messy and takes time to dry. Also the tins dry out after a year or so (unless you are very careful).

I have switched back to GW Devlan Mud Wash for most things.

Mick

I've had my AP dips for a few years with no problems. Just make sure you put the lid back on properly after use.
Light- use on white or very light colours. I have a tin and hardly use it. If I started an Austrian Napoleonic army I wouldn't be able to live without it

Strong- like Mick said, the most useful and can be used on pretty much anything.

Dark- haven't used this one as strong covers everything I need.

Despite being called dips always apply with a brush. Less waste and more control. Great stuff that has revolutionised my painting. I use strong tone on almost all my infantry and cavalry figures of all scales. I don't use it on vehicles, terrain etc as I prefer a thinner wash.
If you go to the AP website there are a few examples.
link
Worth bearing in mind that for every fanboy like me someone else hates the stuff. If you're after a quick way of getting decent looking figures on the table without too much effort then I think it's great. For anyone who takes real pride in their painting I wouldn't bother.

I agree with Agent Brown – for figures that are designed to win Painting Competitions I wouldn't be using Army painter Dip BUT … for 15mm ordinary line-of-battle troops you need in large numbers its hard to go past it for speed.

I echo what Agent Brown says. I use AP dip a lot and it has helped me get figures on to the table. have a look through the examples on the AP site as they are fairly good. or do a google for other examples of it's use

one thing I do recomend is a good matt varnish after using it

AP dip is the way forward if you want to get plenty of troops on the table and i think they look good too. I use the strong tone for everything, but make sure you close the lid properly, as mine has now dried up…..

As has been mentioned, you will need a good matt varnish, personally ive had no end of trouble using the AP anti shine stuff, it always either goes milky or cracks, thus ruining all my hard work.

Use a brush on varnish, or ive heard good things about testors dullcote, but havent tried it.

Steve.

I used the medium dip before ,although with the brush-on method which allows for much more control over how much and where on the miniature the shading goes.

I stopped using it, however, and nowadays exclusively use normal GW washes. TAP QuickShade has severe disadvantages: It is very sticky and messy and your workbench WILL get covered in little sticky puddles of the stuff. That also means that you have to clean your brush (you have to use a brush wether you brush-on or dip) with solvent. The QuickShade leaves a fairly thick glossy layer around the miniature, and you will lose quiet some detail when adding another layer of matte varnish.

From what I understand, the main advantage is that you can dip a whole army quickly and have them gloss-varnished at the same time. If you feel like one single layer of matte varnish gives you enough protection, I would suggest you stay away from QuickShade and just use normal washes.

I'm also very uncomfortable with the suggested method of holding your miniature with pliers after dipping and shaking the excess dip off on the floor… God knows what happens to the figure when it flies across the room with full force :D

Edit: As for drying up, I heard that you can just add terpentine or similar to make it work again.

I use the strong tone. It is a far better shader than the games workshop water-based washes I have found because it fills the crevices (ooh-err missus) much better and more consistently. Plus it acts as a gloss varnish.

My method is:

1. Spray white undercoat.
2. Block on colours, watering them down by 50% to make them slightly translucent.
3. Brush on the strong tone, leave for a few mins then tidy up pooling and add more where needed.
4. Once dry I quickly touch up white and flesh to make them stand out a it better.
5. I use a GW black wash to bring out a few details such as musket mechanisms and other areas the strong tone has not worked so well on.
6. Coat of plastidip spray to seal.
7. Coat of army painter matt varnish.

This method has halved my painting time per figure and the results are absolutely fine. There is a leap of faith when using it to begin with. Your figures will look pretty awful right up until you finish them with the matt varnish, but the final result after that is GOOD.

I cannot understand all the nonsense above about smell and mess. I use it on a computer desk in my spare room and the figures dry in there as well, and I can tell you, that unless you are throwing around large quantities of the stuff, then its FINE.

Cheers

Jaz
6sided.net – Read Wargamers Blogs

I love Quick Shade and use it all the time. I NEVER dip miniatures, I apply mine with a brush. I agree that it is messy (wear latex gloves and work over paper than can be tossed), it takes at least 24 hours to dry, it can crackle if you Dullcote it before it fully dries, and it can dry out if you are not careful.

Strong Tone – General Purpose on anything from light to medium colors. This is the one I use 80% of the time.

Example on 15mm Rebel Minis Dropship Troopers – Strong Tone over medium and light colors

Dark Tone – This is best for darker colors or when you really need for something to have more contrast.

Example on 15mm Rebel Minis Dropship Troopers – Dark Tone over light Gray and Blue to get more contrast

My Painting style is simple (15mm):
1. Clean up the figures
2. Glue three at a time to Popsicle sticks
3. Spray Prime (preferably a main color for the minis)
4. Block Paint the mini for all the base colors
5. Add a very few details and rarely a little shading
6. Brush on and off Quick Shade
7. Let Dry AT LEAST 24 Hours
8. DullCote (Matte Sealer)
9. Remove from stick and add to metal washers (Already spray painted a neutral color to prevent rust and make it easier to flock)
10. Flock and finish the washers

Applying Quick Shade with a Brush – Three 15mm minis at a time on a Popsicle stick
1. Mix the Quick Shade with a stir stick of some sort. Do Not Shake the Can so that you can keep the top of the can and the edge where the top fits clean and air tight.
2. With a brush apply a fair amount of QS to the first mini and make sure it is completely covered. Add more than you need to be sure, just get it all covered.
3. Do the same with minis 2 and 3.
4. Wait maybe a minute or two before going to five.
5. Have a number of heavy duty paper towels. Take your brush you used to apply the QS and wipe it off on the towels. Now wipe it back and forth over the first mini removing the excess QS. You need to keep cleaning the brush on the paper towels so that it will keep removing QS from the minis.
6. Clean each of the three minis this way paying special attention to areas the QS will puddle too much or openings where the QS might seal a space (Between legs, between arms and guns etc).
7. Place this stick to dry and do the next. When you place the next stick down to dry, look at the stick you did right before it and make sure you did not miss any puddles, bubbles or sealed openings.
8. Let everything dry for AT LEAST 24 hours.
9. Clean your brush with paint thinner or Mineral Spirits.

If you look at my painted Gallery, just about everything has been done this way, with some changes due to the size of some minis, like tanks and buildings. I like it and it works better for me than all the washes, but to each their own.

Painting Gallery:
link

A few Pictures with all the Minis done using Quick Shade (Even the buildings):

Jeff

All great results!

Just want to point out that with minimal experimenting, you can get the same results with Pledge with Future Shine acrylic floor finish. One to two drops of paint to one tablespoon of floor finish. I have seen stunning results with this. The experimenting comes in the form of what colors you use and whether you will mix your own shades. I should also add that many thin their magic wash with water. I would think that you get a more similar result to Army Painter with it unthinned, however. It has been used in plastic modeling for years for different applications.

Benefits:
1. Pleasant smell
2. No harmful fumes
3. Dries much quicker (it is acrylic based after all)
4. Water clean up
5. Much cheaper

Disadvantages
1. You will need to come up with your own shades (Payne's Grey makes a great dark tone though. There are many browns that will work great straight. You can use Winsor Newton inks that others use with the advantage of the wash holding the ink in the recesses)

2. Probably not as durable a finish but you will be finishing with a clear coat anyway.

3. Depending on where you live, it might be hard to find. I have given the U.S. brand name. Search for magic wash or future shine on the Internet, lots of good information.

I agree with ancientsgamer on using Future. I used to use it a lot as well, but got lazy on making new washes all the time. I would also agree that Quick Shade offers a more durable protective layer than Future does without at least one good gloss coat.

Personally, I found it difficult to get consistent results always mixing the washes, where as the QS was always the same which allowed me more consistency when there were long break in my time to paint (months) and I needed exactly the same results.

Both are fine ways to quickly paint miniatures, everyone just needs to decide what works best for them.

Jeff

Dear JRacel
Great pictures and tutorial – thanks.
Mick

As to keeping your can from drying out, you just need to be very careful to keep the stuff from getting into the rim of the lid. If it does, scrape it out or it won't make a tight seal and will thus dry out.

I also only use a brush. Just get a bunch of very cheap disposable brushes from a Michaels or other craft store. It is only very messy if you use the "dip" method.

I've tried Future, GW washes, etc. and have never been able to get the same results. I think it's the viscosity of the dip that makes the pigment stay in the folds and crevices. Future and washes are too thin to do that.

Thanks for all the advice guys – much appreciated

Forgot to mention I use Bloxygen to help protect my Army Painter Quick Shade from Drying out. It's also great for it real purpose for furniture stains etc.

bloxygen.com

Jeff

I don't think future is too thin if you use it straight. The advantage of QS is that it is a bit thicker but this can be detrimental depending on what results you want. The tendency is for the QS to leave a bit of shading where it isn't wanted IMO. Hence the need to brush it on for control. Personally, the whole dip and shaking of the figure leaves a lot to be desired. I have much better luck with applying with a brush and using some mineral spirits with QS type of products.

With regards to consistency, this can easily be accomplished with an eye dropper and writing down what paints and quantities you use. Again, the disadvantage is that you will need to experiment some. Some paint colors will work well without additional colors. These would be Payne's Grey, Burnt Sienna, Raw Sienna and Chestnut. These are listed from dark to light with the exception of Chestnut which is great for shading flesh. Again, there are some shades of Winsor Newton inks that will work well. The formula that has worked best for me is a tablespoon of Future with about two drops of paint. On the lighter shades, adding an additional drop is fine. Others have found thinning with water works for them. I prefer the added viscosity at I find that it tends to pull the shading into the crevices better. Although mixing your own can add to inconvenience, the other side of the coin is that you can get exactly the shade you want. Also, you can stain colors uses a deeper shade of your desired color such as using a dark burgundy to shade red, etc.

I am not trying to sell this method over the QS necessarily. I just got tired of the fumes, cleaning and the drying time. But there is a lot to be said for convenience as well.

I do believe that the Future works better on smaller miniatures though. The QS is ideal for 25mm and up. I have not found it as easy to use on smaller figures. Maybe a little bit of thinning would help with the smaller scales?

Yes, I've only used QS on 28mm. I think it would not work well on smaller scales.

@ancientsgamer and Bede19025,

I use QS exclusively on 15mm since that is all I collect these days. The pictures I posted were all 15mm and I think it works pretty well on them and I never thin it down. I also know some people that use it on 6mm with pretty good results. The key for me is brushing it on and making sure to brush off the excess. It is still fast and easy with none of the dipping and shaking silliness that Army Painter promotes.

I wanted to also point out that I just this week tested some of the Black Shade Wash (73301) that Vallejo now makes (in a big 200 ml bottle) and it worked as well as the Black Wash GW produces. It's also a lot cheaper than the GW wash since it comes in a massive bottle for about $10. I will have to test out the other colors like Sepia Shade they make. It smells a lot like a future wash, but the pigment is really good, maybe even a little too dark. More expensive than doing your own Future wash, but much more convenient.

Must say that I am enjoying the discussion and learning some new and useful information. Thanks for starting the discussion Dave.

Jeff

Jeff,

When using the QS on 15mm do you use the lighter tone?

Thanks.

@Bede19025,

No, I use mainly the Strong Tone about 80% of the time and Dark the other 20%. I have never used the light version. The trick is light base colors and not to apply too thick a layer of QS. All of the minis in my pictures, especially the light colored Titan Marines were done using the Strong tone and the Gray and Blue Droptroopers I listed earlier were done with Dark Tone. It's all about how you use it.

These Titan Marines were done with Strong Tone right out of the tin.

Jeff

All good points Jeff. As I stated, I like your work. Glad you agree with the brush application too. It really is necessary. Even more so at this scale. I have had less luck with very dark shades on 15mm figures. Probably more due to the way they were sculpted. Better quality figures such as the ones you show have better recesses for the pigments to flow into. Most of my use has been on rehabilitating figures I didn't paint and the sculpting styles were not up to current standards to be sure.

Would love to see the results of the Vallejo. Keep us posted. Would really like to see some side by side with the QS if possible.

one thing I've noticed is it seems that AP have changed the recipe they use for QS. the first few tins I brought were fairly thick and the tins did dry up after a while. but I brought a tin of strong coat last week and it's much thinner and has more pigment in it (it's more of a muddy colour) however when dry it turns into the same glaze we had with the old one.

I've just used it for the first time yesterday so will post a pic once the figures have dried and been varnished

Awesome Jeff! Thank you!

ancientsgamer,

When I have some time I will do some testing between the Vallejo wash and QS. The testing I have done so far was on some old 28mm stuff that was primed in a few light colors to see how well the Vallejo would pick out the details. It worked almost exactly the same of as the GW Black, and was maybe even a little darker. The Vallejo dries dead flat which I love.

One thing that I see really different between the GW washes, and to some extent Future washes, and QS is how they react to paint with teeth (texture or microscopically rough surface like most matte spray paints have). If I apply the GW Wash, Vallejo Wash or often even Future, it tends to discolor the original paint color if it has much teeth to it. That would not be so bad, but the discoloration tens not to be very even and will often happen on the raised surfaces, rather than just the crevices and indention. The only way I know f to try and prevent this is to gloss coat the miniature prior to applying the wash, but this is an extra step and sometimes results in a slight loss of detail that would have been picked up if the wash could be done before the gloss coat. The viscosity and the slow drying time on the QS allow me the chance to apply it heavy and then take off the excess. If I do this correctly, it leaves mostly a gloss coat over the major surfaces and the majority of the coloration and pigment flows into the low areas and recesses. The surface areas are darkened or tented slightly, but not too much and I have never had the stains on raised surfaces I have gotten from some of the other washes. I was thinking about this a lot yesterday after this discussion and I really think that this is the main reason, along with consistency, for my changing to only using QS for most miniatures. Granted, I am doing mostly 15mm and most of them are military, so I don't need bright colors or really professional painting that belongs on Coolminiornot, it just needs to look good for the tabletop. If I needed to do washes in specific colors on specific areas of the minis, that would rule out QS or any dipping method. Lucky for me I can live with just the basic highlights and contrast dipping provides and it often surprises me how well it comes out with minimal effort.

@MikeHobbs – I'm on my third can of Strong Tone and it might be a little different from the first one I had. It's hard for me to remember now, and it may have been I was not doing a very good job of sealing the first can properly which cause the QS to thicken over time and then dry out when I had a lull in painting time. The key thing is that the final effect has remained consistent from can to can for me and that is important.

Thanks again for the discussion.

Jeff

My preference for priming has become the auto body stuff if I am going to use washes or if I will have shields or intricate designs. Learned this from a buddy of mine who makes the most amazing hand painted shields that are very symmetrical. He uses an airbrush primer and alcohol to get a smooth finish. I am still not up to par with my airbrush skills so the auto body paint works well. The smooth base coats allow for very little surface tension when applying lines and patterns. His shields look like decals!

Yes, I forgot about needing to have a smooth surface for the Future to work well. I have found that even the mineral based washes such as QS can deposit unwanted staining because of rough base coating. A quick coat of Future without any shading will help and it dries quickly.

Your reasoning for QS is sound. For me the fumes and the mess were the biggest problem. I don't have an area where I don't have to worry about the kids smelling the stuff. It I still had a separate room to paint in, I wouldn't have as many issues with it. But, I am a firm believer in these quicker washing methods. And contrary to what others say, you can get a very high level of painting using these as long as you combine them with other methods.

Your figures look great and the QS seems to work very well for the fatigue and futuristic style uniforms and vehicles.
If I were to do Napoleonics, I would want the QS to be only a bit lighter tone and to be only in the deeper recesses. Bright uniforms need bright highlights. All the more reason to brush the stuff on.

Thanks for the discussion. It has been enlightening.

This forum is at its very best when a simple question such as the one I posed is taken up by a couple of experts and others chip in to the discussion.

Its why I keep coming back to TMP despite the silliness that explodes from time to time

I'll let you know how my venture into "dipping" (with a paintbrush) goes.

Dave,

Looking forward to seeing your results. Remember to give it enough time to dry before Dullcote. Also apply the Dullcote in thin layers, never soak the mini in it. Those are the main mistake people tend to make.

Jeff

At what point would you add highlights? Before dipping or after?

Using Future I add highlights after as otherwise they can look 'dirty'. Depends how bright you want your highlights. also consider that some varnishes can dull down a highlight.
Experimentation is the key, try on a few old figures to get the hang of it.

In the absence of AECurtis I bring to you his favourite site:
link