"Why do ACW kepis seem so unlike French Kepis?" Topic

It always struck me as odd that ACW kepis seem to resemble forage caps more than the French headgear they were supposedly patterned after. Does anyone know why this is?

Well that's because the EM headgear WAS a forage cap. Somewhat simpler than the kepi! Two different if similar items!

Yes the Frnch kepi is sometimes called a high kepi by gamers. The sides are higher and look to be stiffer. Just a gamer's opinion.
It is also how we describe castings to buyers as well.

What ACW Miniature manufacturers actually make figures with kepis, besides Redoubt? A lot of people don't even know the difference between a kepi and forage cap.

The forage cap is what the US Government issued. There were some variations in size of crown and shape of the visor, but this was a result of the various contractor's interpretations of the QM guidelines, rather than any actual pattern requirements.

Kepis were not specifically issued by the various depots, though they could and were manufactured by them under special contracts between units and the depot they applied to. In these cases, the unit was required to send a pattern example. and to pay the costs of production and shipping.

A common forage cap:

A common privately purchased kepi:

thanks for all the answers so far. I do understand the difference between a forage cap and a kepi, but only because I searched and read two earlier posts on the subject.

My question is why does this:

look so different from this?

Isn't the ACW kepi collapsed because they removed the cardboard form from inside?

Also you'll notice that the contemporary (mid-19th cent) French kepi looked alot like the ACW kepi.

OH OK well this is what you call a "blocked" kepi! The US Army did this in the late 50's and early 60s to their version of the forage cap (modern)

Optional, the French kepi in your picture is of a style not adopted by the French until the 1920s. Your question is sort of like saying how can a Ford Model T and an Acura Legend both be called a car since they look nothing alike.

Thanks for the additional info everyone. Does anyone know have a pic of a 19th century French Kepi?

The French Kepi depicted is POST 1860. THE ACW uniforms were patterned after French attire from the Crimean War and the Austrian
link conflict of 1859.

"Isn't the ACW kepi collapsed because they removed the cardboard form from inside?"

There was no cardboard inside the ACW Forage cap nor the ACW Kepi.

Don

actionfront.blogspot.com

"Who ever saw a dead cavalryman?"

The "cardboard" idea is the difference in appearance between the 1850's US shako and the forage cap. Again, nothing to do with kepis. I suggest you browse thru the website of the hatmaker, Dirty Billy. dirtybillyshats.com/oldsite
See hat model US21. Compare it to the civil war US17 or US20 and you will what they are talking about. Kepis belonged almost exclusively to officers and some "zouave" units. Most US soldiers during the CW wore forage caps or the Hardee hat (US8).

Now if you want to see where the 1850's US shako descended from see US42 and US43, the leather shako.

If anybody can tell me how to insert an image into a TMP post, I can show you an example of a 3rd Empire French kepi.

74, just copy and paste the image url into the message. Make sure the url ends with the graphic extension such as jpg. also not all graphic formats are accepted so it can be hit or miss.

Thanks to all for those answers.

Cool. Learn something new everyday. I always thought the ACW 'kepi' just came from squashed down shakos.

I would still be hard put to tell the difference between a kepi and a forage cap though.

Especially in 15mm!

One can see clearly why most people wouldn't bother themselves
overmuch with making a distinction. They're both funny little
hats (or caps, if you prefer).

Thanks for the Link to Dirty Billy – great site!

I've been buying from Bill for more than 30 years now. He makes great caps and hats. There are a couple other ones as well. Greg Starbuck & Nick Sekela make excellent caps, and Tim Bender makes hats of museum quality.

If you visit Gettysburg a visit to Dirty Billy is a must. He sells headgear, of course, but he also has originals on display and is an absolute font of information.

He specially made my officer's kepi (yes, different from a forage cap, of which I have two from Dirty Billy).

Wasn't a 'style' for infantrymen to squash the kepi down and push the top forward, particularly the taller kepis?

It may have been an effort to create a more uniform look as some men could be issued taller kepis than others in the same regiment.

Bill

"Wasn't a 'style' for infantrymen to squash the kepi down and push the top forward, particularly the taller kepis?"

You really can't squash a kepi down or pull it up. They are where they are. You can do this to a poor quality forage cap reproduction (this is because the fabric is too heavy). On a properly made forage cap, it pretty much falls where it will. You can pull the cap up, but as soon as you release it falls right back to a somewhat squashed look.

The ACW forage cap was not designed to be stylish or sharp in appearance, and it certainly was not! LOL

Kind of depends on the style of the time. For them, it may have been "stylish" – certainly more than a bearskin or tricon!

John the Greater: I agree completely! Another required visit is to Chris Daley's shop to see his amazing work with uniforms and clothing.

I have a beautiful forage cap from Nick Sekela, his "Lincoln" McDowell pattern cap. He had access to the original which was a "private-purchase" cap worn by )I believe) Henry Lincoln, an enlisted cavalryman. It's a fine broadcloth material. Nick had the beveled gold-plated chin strap slide custom made, and used a period lacquer on the visor. It just looks "right" and feel proper when you wear it.

The 2nd one I have is a CS officer's kepi by Greg Starbuck. His work, too, is superb. Both are expensive, but well worth (in my opinion) the money.

The McDowell pattern cap is modeled after a German student cap of the period. There is a little card board is some forge caps, it is the a flat piece under the top. It gets messed up once wet.
Some state issued uniforms were is issued with kepis. But the kepi was not a Federal QM item.

I also have one of Nick's McDowell pattern caps, love it.

Some French kepis from the 2nd French Empire (1852-1870).

SOME OFFICERS OF THE ZOUAVE REGIMENT OF THE FRENCH IMPERIAL GUARD

KEPI OF NCO OF THE CENT-GARDES (NAPOLEON III'S PERSONAL BODYGUARDS)

KEPI OF LIEUTENANT OF THE 3RD HUSSARS (1860)

KEPI THAT BELONGED TO GENERAL FOREY DURING THE FRANCO-AUSTRIAN WAR (ITALIAN CAMPAIGN OF 1859)

KEPI OF THE 2ND HUSSARS (THE BLUE AND BROWN KEPI)

TWO OFFICERS OF FRENCH LINE ZOUAVES IN 1855 DURING THE CRIMEAN WAR

OFFICER OF CARABINIERS (HEAVY CAVALRY)

CORPORAL OF THE 37th FRENCH INFANTRY REGIMENT OF THE LINE (1869)

GENERAL (LATER MARSHAL) MacMahon

A Maryland Militia Kepi. I had dirty Billy make this copy from the 2 surviving originals owned by the Maryland historical society

link

General of Division Douay (1870)

Captain Prevault of the 2nd Zouaves (photo taken in 1865)

Officers of the 11th French Battalion of Chasseurs a Pied (1867)

Charles Anatole de Paillot (Chef de bataillon Paillot commanded the 11th Battalion from december 1866 until 1873)

Commandant Genneau (commander of the 3rd French Battalion of Chasseurs a Pied in 1857)

"Wasn't a 'style' for infantrymen to squash the kepi down and push the top forward, particularly the taller kepis?"

EJNashIII wrote:
You really can't squash a kepi down or pull it up. They are where they are. You can do this to a poor quality forage cap reproduction (this is because the fabric is too heavy). On a properly made forage cap, it pretty much falls where it will. You can pull the cap up, but as soon as you release it falls right back to a somewhat squashed look.

I wish I could post some pictures. There were a number of Union and Confederate kepi styles that did not look like the two shown or the French style, which is much the same. Some were taller, and standing upright to what appear to be five or six inches, others had much larger crowns which weren't corded around the edges, but flat like the Union picture shown, only more so. Others has wider brims, some nearly non-existent. And any number of the hats appear to be squashed flat, far flater than what is shown. Others, the taller ones with the wider crown are squashed so the crown is nearly vertical over the brim.

Those differences obviously are created purposely, particularly for photos of the time, not just because they can't hold their shape.

Bill

I figured out how to do it.

Kepi worned by Officer John Lane

link

Squashed down Kepi with large crown

link

Another, smaller crowned squashed kepi…

An example of the stand-up type of ACW Kepi.

Here's one with hardly hany height at all, but with a large bill

Here is one with hardly any bill, but very large crown

Here is one with very stiff sides

Alfred Pirtle's Civil War kepi

Rather small kepi

Point being, there were a number of 'styles' in kepis. I believe that some had names. Many didn't look like the French version. Perhaps somebody knows why other than the wide variety of makers, and some of the names.

Bill

Here's a link to an interesting selection of period US headgear: link

McLaddie, let's go down your photo list. Maybe this will explain things a bit.

*John Lane: rather standard Kepi. This is what you are looking for.

*Link 1: Poor quality repro forage cap like I talked about above

*Link 2: real forage cap laying down as I said above

*Stand up, (red top): Fabric shako (not a kepi or forage cap at all)

*large bill: slight variation private purchase kepi. My guess, post civil war.

*little bill: contract variation forage cap called the McDowell, not a kepi.

*stiff sides: I don't think this is civil war. It is a Span-Am war pill box

*Alfred Pirtle's is a forage cap, not a kepi, McDowell, again

*small kepi: weird modern leather replica, not civil war

So, no, they are not styles of kepis. Kepi styles usually revolve around color and braiding.

EJNashIII

On the first link, the replica picture was used because I couldn't get an original [which looked the same] to come out.

All the pictures are listed as civil war era, including the one you identify as a Spanish-American 'pill box.' The hat you call a fabric shako is the same size and fabric length on the sides as the kepis, ony stiff.

My questions for you are:

1. Did the ACW soldiers make the distinctions you make?
2. How common were 'forage caps', 'McDowells', shakos,
and 'private purchases'[which could mean anything from a
personal purchase to a volunteer contract, as opposed to
the 'kepi'?
3. At least on place the McDowell is identified as a kepi
called a McDowell. Is that an error by the museum or an
error made by contemporaries?
4. How do you tell the difference between a 'forage cap'
and a kepi? Is that a distinction the ACW soldiers made?

Bill

I should add that the Kepi was a French forage cap, which is why I asked:

4. How do you tell the difference between a 'forage cap'
and a kepi? Is that a distinction the ACW soldiers made?

EJNashIII:

I'm having too much fun with these pictures:

Let me see if I can make the distinction:

Here is a cavalryman in a forage cap:

Here is another group of cavalrymen wearing what are 'forage caps'

link

Were forage caps common Union cavalry headgear instead of kepis?

Here are a couple of rather small Kepis, and shaped like that leather one you felt was a poor representation.

link

Here is a group where the first two men seem to be wearing squashed down kepis, but the man on the far end appears to have a forage cap.

link

It would also appear that some kepis had reinforced bands around the bottom which created a different look:

and finally, where is a Union artillerist in 1863 with what appears to be a forage cap:

And here is one that appears to be a McDowell, but it is hard to tell:

When you look at the different photos from the ACW, there seems to be as many other kinds of caps used as the French kepi. Is that your read on this?

Bill

Well, let's go at it

"All the pictures are listed as civil war era, including the one you identify as a Spanish-American 'pill box.' The hat you call a fabric shako is the same size and fabric length on the sides as the kepis, ony stiff."

The pIllbox is definitely Span Am. I guess 19th century is still CW era in some circles.

Confederate general Fighting Joe Wheeler was in Cuba.

The Shako, while having a somewhat similar shape descends from a completely different style of hat. The similarity comes from the fabric construction.

The rest, blame the internet for not being perfect.

"My questions for you are:

1. Did the ACW soldiers make the distinctions you make?
2. How common were 'forage caps', 'McDowells', shakos,
and 'private purchases'[which could mean anything from a
personal purchase to a volunteer contract, as opposed to
the 'kepi'?
3. At least on place the McDowell is identified as a kepi
called a McDowell. Is that an error by the museum or an
error made by contemporaries?
4. How do you tell the difference between a 'forage cap'
and a kepi? Is that a distinction the ACW soldiers made?"

1) Yes, hat styles were a big deal during the period as most men wore hats. Fashion is fashion.

2) most common by far: The Forage cap (easily 80%)
McDowell is just a type of forage cap (different cut brim) common in the eastern Union armies. Shakos and kepis are rare and are mostly early war in "special" units and militias. Kepis were more common as officer hats. Don't forget Hardee hats which were far more common than kepis and probably more common than Forage caps in the western Union army.

3) clear error by someone who didn't know what they were talking about.

4) The difference is in the cut and construction. The Kepi is far more ornate and of a finer finish. The crown sits just a certain way. The period saying would be "fine french design". The forage cap is sewn differently, and has a shoddy, simpler design. It has a different cut to the crown and chinstrap. The period saying is the "design of a feedbag vs the french silk shirt". However, the forage cap is quite comfortable and considerably cheaper to make. In having quality reproductions made you are talking 1/2 the price of a kepi. I spent $220 USD for a kepi vs $110 USD for a Forage cap.

No, the kepi is not a french forage cap. In fact to say so to someone who owned a kepi was an insult. (You are saying his fine Kepi is shoddy trash). However, like the Hardee and Shako it served a similar purpose to the forage cap. What you are saying is the modern US military baseball cap is the same as a boonie hat and a beret. Yes, they are all green (maybe), made of fabric and sit on your head. That doesn't mean they are the same or have the same design history.

Fun, game 2 of the hat parade, lets go :-)

1) Yes Forage cap! Interesting uniform on the guy, the stripes point up rather than down as they should

2) Yes for 3, the fourth has a civilian hat. 2 for 2

3) I'm not an expert on cavalry so I cannot say which is more common in this service. Anyone else have an answer?

4&5) (small kepis) No, Forage caps. It is not a different hat, the 1st is on a holder that is giving the shape. I suspect the other is influenced by the head/hair shape and the fact the guy might have been issued a hat that is a little small for his head size.

6) forage caps

6) Rebel hat, different discussion.

7) Union artillerist in 1863. Yes forage. He sure connects to the other discussion on age. How old was this guy?

8) McDowell. Maybe, Maybe not, hard to tell by the angle. Definitely some form of forage hat. Interesting that the guy has a state militia jacket, a british Enfield rifle and a white haversack. (all non-standard, but obviously not unheard of)

The french kepi is rare (but not absent) in US service. However, since shoddy construction was prime during the war there are many slight variations to the common types depending on who made them.

Here is a federal kepi:

link

here is a confederate kepi:

link

Here is a federal forage cap:

link

Here is a CS forage cap of the "McDowell" pattern

link

Here is a similar federal forage cap.

link

Differences are easy to see. Kepis & forage caos are different creatures.

Note: The US Government did NOT issue kepis to US Army troops. Units COULD purchase them through the QM department, provided that a completed copy was sent as a pattern, and the required funds accompanied it. Many private firms made kepis, and they were quite popular with officers, who had to buy their own uniforms and equipment. Enlisted men sometimes also bought their own kepi if they so wanted to. However, the forage cap was the issue cap by the US government for all enlisted men. Forage caps, even those made by the arsenals and not by contractors could and did vary as to the highth & weidth of the body & crown, and the cut of the visor. Collectors today have different names for these such as "Type I", Type II" "McDowell", etc, but to the army they were all simply caps and the variations were the result of the contractors interpretations of the QM specs.

The CS government contracted the majority of it's caps through private firms and these produced both kepis and forage caps, though the kepi was by far the most common CS cap. To the CS QM, both Kepi & forage cap were simply caps and were issued as such when requested, though they, too, would happily accept cash orders for specific items from units and individuals.

respects.

Thank you for the clarifications and background on their histories. It certainly helped me. And here I thought that the French kepis were just one 'style' among many 'kepis', all having their origins as forage caps.

No, the kepi is not a french forage cap. In fact to say so to someone who owned a kepi was an insult. (You are saying his fine Kepi is shoddy trash).

Hmmm. I am surprised by this. The kepi WAS a forage cap for the French, and other nations, starting in the 1830s. The French used it in the field when not wearing the shako throughout the 1800s. Forage caps had been a custom for over two centuries. It certainly wasn't an insult when the French used the term…. nor were they usually considered trash. Where the ACW 'Forage Caps' considered 'trash?'.

However, like the Hardee and Shako it served a similar purpose to the forage cap.

Yes, it did. My point. A "forage cap" may have been a specific style of cap for ACW soldiers, but in Europe it was whatever headgear was worn in place of the shako or 'dress' uniform headgear in the field. For instance, the French Imperial Guard went into battle in 1870 wearing 'forage caps' instead of their bearskins. Those forage caps looked nothing like any of the ACW forage caps or Kepis. They were still considered forage caps. Even today, the military has two types of head cover, one for dress and one for undress.

What you are saying is the modern US military baseball cap is the same as a boonie hat and a beret. Yes, they are all green (maybe), made of fabric and sit on your head. That doesn't mean they are the same or have the same design history.

Well, I tried not to say that… It just slipped out. ;-j

A "forage cap" was a type of head cover representing many different styles between 1700 and the present. So if the baseball cap, boonie hat and a beret served the same military purpose as all the other forage caps, then yes they are in the same category, even with different designs and histories.

If ACW soldiers labeled different caps Forage Caps, Kepis and McDowells, then yes, obviously they were different hats, and certainly they had different histories. As dress uniforms for both ACW armies was the short shako, all of those hats served the same purpose as all forage caps, regardless of style or how often they were worn under whatever conditions.

Hence my confusion, which seems to have been semantics…

Regards,
Bill

Just to clarify…

The Grenadiers of the French Imperial Guard wore bearskins during the Crimean War and the Franco-Austrian War (Italian campaign of 1859). They still had them at the start of the Franco-Prussian War, but they were quickly replaced with the BONNET DE POLICE on 30 July, 1870.

Voltigeurs and Chasseurs a Pied of the French Imperial Guard went into battle in the Crimean War and the Franco-Austrian War wearing shakos. These were replaced with the bonnet de police in 1870.

French Guard Grenadiers with the bonnet de police (1870)

Guard Voltigeurs (1870)

Model 1854 of the Voltigeur's bonnet de police:

Guard Chasseurs a Pied (1870)

French Guard Grenadiers with the bonnet de police (1870)

Yes, that is what it was called. Just to clarify: It was also referred to as a forage cap in several places by the French. Not a comment in it's style or proper name, but rather its use or place in the customs regarding uniforms.

Bill

I understand what you are saying, Bill. I'm just getting the nomenclature correct. :-)

Cuirassier:

10-4, Armor Boy. ;-7

This is most interesting. I've just been regarding "kepi" and "forage cap" as synonymous terms, without appreciating the differences between them.

But what, then, is a "bummer's cap"? I understod it to be a Mexican War-style peaked cap, but I have also seen McDowell-style caps described in this way.

There officially isn't anything called a bummer's cap. It is a slang term for using your hat to hold stolen food stuff. Likewise, a Bummer is a soldier that lags behind to forage. It was used in general to describe Sherman's men during the march to the sea and beyond as they were living off the land. The forage cap is sometimes jokingly called the bummer just because of the connection to it's described "feed bag" shape and the fact it can actually hold allot in that use. In many ways this idea is actually post war. Most of the real foraging was done by "Hobos", Homeward bound soldiers, wandering or "Tramp"ing about. This same tramp culture of the wandering gunman/thief with a blanket over his shoulder quickly became better known as the western gunslingers.

During the Mexican war you generally have the shako, the pinwheel (also known as Chako), and a forage cap with a mushroom shaped crown (based on the pinwheel)