"Wrapping your tank around a tree... (Or trying to do so)" Topic

I've always wondered how big a tree a tank could drive over and keep going without compromising the defensive qualities of the tank. Also, is it different with steel tanks vs. Chobham armour tanks?

About 15 years ago in Germany I sideswiped a tree that was probably 50 ft tall and maybe 2 ft in diameter. Knocked it pretty far over and never realized it until my Tank Commander started yelling at me. M1A1 is a LOT of tank. No damage to the vehicle.

Ed G.

The problem that occurs is the root ball that might get pulled out of the ground. It or if the trunk breaks off could cause the tank to become high centered. IIRC a tree over 12" diameter starts to offer difficulties to a tank.
We had a tank in Germany driving thru the woods past a pile of logs on the side of the dirt road. The tank clipped the pile and one log came spinning up out of the pile, hitting the TC in the head with one end. He was lucky and just got his bell rung rather well.

So no damage to armor but possible damage to crew, mobility, or accessories.

From experience, about 2 ft in diameter if you are just knocking a single tree over, like for an obstacle. About 1 ft if you are driving over it. Lots of variables though, like type of tree, soft or wet ground vs hard. In the woods, as small as 4" if they are close together. The only damage would probably be if you threw a track. But like Major Mike says, high centering the tank is the big problem. Most tanks have less than 12" ground clearance and unless it forces the tree into the soil, the tank would lift at least 1 track.

There's actually a study about this, somewhere. An Army officer got permission to run M60s through forests in Germany, trying them at various speeds and with trees of various diameters. Turned out the forests were a lot less of an obstacle to tanks than anyone had thought …

Wish I had the slightest idea where to find that. Official Army article … might have been in Armor?

Possibly.

An Army officer got permission to run M60s through forests in Germany, trying them at various speeds and with trees of various diameters.

What a rough job for the tank crew… why couldn't I get to do something fun like that!

There are all those Youtube videos of Soviet BT-7 tanks knocking down trees, but they are pretty small trees.
YouTube link

Danger in running over trees in Africa is that vipers tend to accumulate on the turret,bummer for TC.

It doesn't always work out…

picture

Cool pick with the WWI tank, but then again, those were built to stop small arms, for even a 50cal with tungston ammo could penetrate MK4s at close range.

Back when I was in, mid 80s, when M113s were still the main APC, we had a TC bust a couple of ribs after the driver took down a 12 inch tree. Brigade SOP then changed to require everyone in the track to wear the flack vest to give the ribs a little padding when bouncing against the hatch openings. We also managed to flip a tank…an M-48 vismod if I remember correctly, but that was traversing a streambed diagonally rather than tree related.

Sometimes the tree comes along for the ride…
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You could possibly track the vehicle, but there should be no real damage to a tank. However, where the trees are two feet thick and close together you might have trouble bulling your way thru.
I never had trouble with a tree, but I did help punch a gun tube about two feet into the mud once. That brings the tank to screeching halt. Runs the gun out of battery [really not a good thing].
Weaselhoffen.

I think basiclaly you can either push the tree over or you can't, it doesn't especially compromise the armour protection. The worse adverse outcome is probably immobilising the tank.

Grand,

Did a similar thing with a 105mm How during airmobile operations. The sling broke and the Chinook pilot had to drop the load. Gun landed in a swamp, looked like a big lawn dart with the barrel in the mud and the trails sticking straight up.

There is a story of a Leopard AS1 Troop Commander reversing at speed (from hull down – turret at angle to hull), checked rear (to ensure clear of obstacles) … Leopard reversed, at speed, into a dirty big old Iron Bark tree. Tree trunk embedded into hull rear, knocked engine block off all mountings and through a firewall. Supposedly the tank was written off. I wasn't there, I didn't see it, its true or not.

If you read Vietnam Tracks, AFV mobility through forested areas is surprising (rubber plantations, bamboo stands …) but not unlimited. Perhaps not dissimilar to thoughts that the Ardennes was impenetrable to AFVs?

Main reason Australian troops in the islands in WW2 preferred the Matilda to the Stuart – the Matilda would flatten down undergrowth & small trees when the Stuart just perched on top with the tracks spinning.

I never had a problem hitting trees with the front. One time, my tank commander was not payin attention and we wacked a tree with the bustle rack. It sheared the magnetic locks and the turrent spun like a top three times fast. It looked cool from the driver's hole. Not so much from up top.

I heard tales of a Chieftan gunner (BAOR) who wrapped his 120mm gun barrel around a tree after traversing to engage a 'target right'……….
The prototype Challengers had a mod to the drivers hatch fixings after they became prone to closing guillotine style if the tank hit a bump…….something to be done with the 'ball-latch' first fitted.

Don't forget that exposing the belly armour whilst cresting an obstacle is inviting trouble……

The Ardennes Forest was passable because the Germans drove down the firebreaks and logging trails…..both times.

Doc,
A swamp!
I also sank an M60A! once. They hold a lot of water.
Weaselhoffen.

Back in the day … I tried to have my M113 crews avoid running over trees … I've seen an M60 running along a fire break run over the front of an M880 CUCV(the Mil version of a Dodge Pick Up.) The hood, engine etc. was about 12 inches tall after that … And on certain posts you couldn't cut down(or run over!)trees in training areas, for enviromental reasons …

Had a Ford Bronco lose control on black ice and run head on into a M60a1 while road marching to the railhead at Hohenfels. It left the radiator hanging on the front left pintel and the tanks tracks ran over the engine compartment close to the firewall. The driver was not wearing a seatbelt and somehow managed to Alley-oop towards the back seat and his shins were pinned to the front seat by the dashboard. Other than being severely shaken up, the driver was unhurt.
Often in woods, we tried to go around trees if at all possible. When you have to remove fenders due to damage, mud and slush can go everywhere. Trees can also get hung up on other trees and not fall cleanly and straddling a fallen tree has the potential of causing track to come off. Trying to get track back on a tank in woods then become a "fun" recovery problem.

Out at Fort Irwin never really worried much about trees.
Weaselhoffen.

"Out at Fort Irwin never really worried much about trees."

I hated moving on foot at night and finding someones old fighting position the hard way at Irwin.

I just hated Ft. Irwin/NTC … twice !!! Once as a BDE BMO and then as a Mech Co Cdr !

Knocked over plenty of trees in APCs, Sheridans and M60A1s when I was in the army. never had a problem.
The M551s with its aluminum hull and APCs could not go over huge trees. I remember one case where a 9 inch gash was sliced into the side of a M551. Mad the Colonel mad but not hard to fix.
The ARVs especially had no problem knocking over any size tree.

Major Mike,
We were doing dismounted patrol one night out near Goldstone.
My driver in the lead wearing nightvision goggles stepped in a hole. The next guy in line [also wearing goggles] didn't see him fall and stepped on his head.
Weaselhoffen.

I hate NTC …

During the Reichwald battles there were a number of Churchills that fought through the woods. The general consensus was that apart from visibility the woods were less of an issue than originally expected. Anything too big to knock down you could go around without too much difficulty. They did however have some problems with the turrets getting jammed on some tanks. The first report I read stated the turret was lifted off it's race by logs or tree debris getting wedged under it (the turret). I'm not sure if this is true, but I suppose wood does not compress so it's possible, although the over the hull tracks on the Churchill may have encouraged it??

Australian Centurians in Vietnam also seem to have had little difficulty