"Jacket Colors: Württemberg & Bavaria" Topic

OK, so …

Depending on which color plates you look at in books or websites or figures that others have painted from such, you see any variation of the following:

Württemberg infantry in dark blue coats
Bavarian infantry in dark blue coats
Württemberg infantry in lighter (medium?) blue coats
Bavarian infantry in lighter (medium?) blue coats

Seriously, what is a painter to do?

Now, I don't care what shade of blue beyond, light / pale vs medium vs dark.

What I am really trying to figure out is if people really have any clue or if the two countries used a relatively similar that through variation, age, weathering, etc. might as well have been the same?

Just because it is fun to stir up trouble, I figured I'd ask here ;-)

Cheers,

The Bandit

Bandit,
As far as I know, and in very simple terms:
Bavarian Infantry – Medium Blue [the actual color is the subject of much debate]
Wurttemberg Infantry – Dark Blue
Bavarian Artillery – Dark Blue
Wurttemberg Artillery – Light Blue

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Bavarian- Cornflower Blue? as I understand it.

Many references give cornflower blue as the color of Bavarian uniform coats which could be called a light medium blue but it appears many gamers, artists, and historians disagree with the "appearance" of the color. DecoArt makes a cornflower blue (bleu vif) in a squeeze bottle that contains its own metal primer and appears to work as long as you follow instructions. I have also used it over normally white primed figures. I think whatever works for you visually should be fine… Will

If you Google cornflower blue, you will see some interesting examples…. A problem is that even these images have variations to them.

This link clearly shows a lighter blue shade:

link

It looks like a sky blue, only a bit darker than a clear smog free day at noon.

The actual cornflower itself:

link

Notice how up close it looks darker but at a distance, the flowers show their lighter highlights. I think a big clue to Bavarian colors would be the Bavarian Lozenge pattern on their flags? Definitely a lighter blue….

Nice color swatches on the bottom of this Wikipedia page:

link

I use a light blue for the infantry and dark blue for arty and a light green for cav.

Bandit,

I really like the way you worded your original question, as the frequent debates about the "correct" color of a Napoleonic Era uniform item are really quite academic. During this era virtually all dyes were highly unstable vegetable-based dyes, so a "freshly dyed" uniform item would look considerably different after only weeks of active campaigning.

During my ACW reenacting days I purchased a highly accurate, North Carolina pattern, jeans cloth (cotton-wool blend) Confederate shell jacket that was completely hand sewn and dyed with a non-poisonous sumac dye. The dye was mixed to the exact recipe described in a period document. When the jacket was delivered it was a wonderful shade of cadet gray. After just 1 year's worth of reenacting it had faded to a fine shade of "butternut brown", just like many period observers record it in their memoirs.

So the question becomes, how to paint it in miniature? Tough question.

When the jacket was delivered it was a wonderful shade of cadet gray. After just 1 year's worth of reenacting it had faded to a fine shade of "butternut brown", just like many period observers record it in their memoirs.

You wouldn't have any "before" and "after" photographs, by any chance? That would be something I'd like to see.

Bavarian light infantry : green coats.

"You wouldn't have any "before" and "after" photographs, by any chance? That would be something I'd like to see."

Mericanach,

Sadly, I cannot; but I can come close. The gentleman who made the jacket is still in business and has an excellent website, which can be found here: bentart.com/index.html

If you go to Ben's "Fabrics" tab and zoom-in on the fabric sample pic, third from the left, you will see a fabric at the top that is labeled "Sumac Jean $32/yd". When seen in natural light it's bluish tint is more noticeable, but the color is close enough for the "before" example. Ben's description of the material is as follows: "Sumac Jean- vegetable dyed using a recipe from a Confederate dye book. Fades to a light tan color. $32 USD per yard".

Ben is an expert in period dyes, and fabric making techniques, and would be glad to speak with you on the subject.

about unstable dyes – not always true – the dyes for wool were not so bad, dark blue for example, also the Bavarian blue did not fade – in fact I made the experience that lighter colours darken by wear and tear – dirt.

The changing of colours of confederate uniforms was due to the jeans cloth, all this was very well discussed in an issue of Military Illustrated Magazine

I use Vallejo "Andrea Blue" for the current batch of Bavarian Line. My older ones were done with Humbrol's "Prussian Dragoon Blue", which is no longer available-at least under that name.
Both are very close the Blue in the flag.
The Light Infantry and Cheveaulegers all are in Dark Green and the Artillery (both horse and foot) are a dark blue.

Wurttemberg Line is dark blue, the Lights and Jagers (or Chasseurs) are dark green. The Artillery is light blue (I used Vallejo "Deep Sky Blue".

Sources include Rawkins, the Histofig Empire site, Osprey series and Nafziger.

A look at the BMW automobile logo gives the color of Bavarian blue…supposedly the color of Bavarian infantry tunics during the Napoleonic Wars.

@ bkim4175

This conversion chart of old Humbrol to new Humbrol colours may help:

link

Prussian Dragoon Blue was Humbrol MC12 and as such is supposedly close to the current Humbrol 109 (WW1 Blue, presumably German).

link

From what I remember of PDB, that is not too far off.

4thC – that is a great link.

Of course, my question will now be – has anyone actually bought and matched new to old and, if so, how good is the match?

I grew up with the Napoleonic colours, and found they were very subtle compared to the traditional range, so I would be really interested to know if the new range is a good match, or just colours that are considered "near to".

Thanks

I have used Humbrol 109 for my 6mm Bavarians and it looks fine. As they are 6mm, the slightly lighter shade works better than a darker shade would; particularly as the dark blue used on my French is lighter than the true colour.

Many years ago I used the old Humbrol 'German Light Blue' from their Authentic World War I aviation set on my 15mm Bavarians and it and 109 are virtually indistinguishable.

In 28mm where the colours show out more and you can get away with proper dark blues for the French then I think that the Vallejo 'Andrea Blue' is probably a truer representation.

Hope its useful Marc.

Some of the comparisons do seem to be "wrong but quite close". For example, there's no way MC10 Polish Crimson is the same shade as the current Humbrol 20, which is just "Crimson". The Polish colour was quite pinky IIRC.

Some, however, are spot on. I believe it was Mr. Summerfield of this parish who contacted Humbrol with the historical formulation of the colour British guns were painted in. Humbrol thought about it and advised H106, Ocean Grey. Lo and behold, per the link, the best match for MC20 British Equipment Grey is indeed H106.

My brother and I inadvertently made a howling error with blue years ago. We didn't know you could matt-varnish gloss paint to take the gloss off, so we searched high and low for a matt-finish dark blue. We acquired a tin of Humbrol HM5, which is Field Blue, actually a dark greyish shade. We painted a whole bunch of French in it. Later we discovered Humbrol MC8, the better colour, and because I had Prussians at that point, we painted them in French blue. So we had French in Prussian blue, and vice versa. Doh!

I now use Vallejos and mostly I use the darkest blue available, for the French. Most of the colours Vallejo calls dark blue are not that dark, and I think will work well for Bavarians. As the OP notes, it's all in the comparisons.

link

suggests Vallejo 943 as a match for Humbrol WW1 blue. I'm a bit dubious about twice-removed matches. MC12 = Hu109 = V943….hmm, I'd say PDB had a touch of grey in it which IIRC V943 lacks. But the best way would be to try them out.

The Humbrol WW1 blue (ex-Dragoon blue) is probably the closest match for Bavarian Napoleonic infantry, IMO.

Look at these sets of prints by Cantler – probably the most accurate post-Napoleonic artist when it comes to Bavarian uniforms – and see his own variations in the blue of the line infantry:-

link

Now compare those to these surviving uniforms:-

picture

picture

And this painting by Kobel, a contemporary artist at the Bavarian court:-

link

It is quite possible that the line infantry coat colour may have varied over the period of the Napoleonic Wars, which might explain the variations in Cantler. Allegedly, at one point in the mid-18th Century the dye for conrflower blue became too expensive for the cash-strapped Bavarian government and they abandoned it during the SYW.

4th – yeah, it is a great resource. I mostly use Vallejos now, either the Game range for ease, or the full range if I need more subtlety.

But what is really lacking for me is a direct match from Humbrol Accurate range to modern paints. Most links I see seem to be guesstimates or "once removed" etc.

Not that I am saying that the HAC were the correct colours, just that I am used to them from kid days, so tend to favour them. For example, my polish lancers have to resemble the prints in Blandford, rather than the more modern Osprey (even if the accuracy suffers).

Just old I guess :-(

I am painting 15mm Bavarians now. I will post some pictures after I have a few finished this week. I have a few light infantry skirmishers done. I am 16 years out of practice so so be gentle with the critiques.

Post later today

Here you can see some cornflower blue in action, YouTube link And one for an Andreas Hofer fans, YouTube link

I use an acrylic blue that matches the 1808-9 Cantler Print for Bavarian Inf. Since I 'wash' very slightly thinned colour over white drybrush highlighted black prime on 6mm figures, it looks like I wanted it to- lighter than the French Indigo, darker than 'cornflower.
BTW Your information always seems to be prety good, 'SuperMax'