"Mexican Uniforms in John Wayne Alamo Movie" Topic

I know there was much that was "Hollywood" and not history in this version. Is there any evidence that the Multicolored Mexican troops were based on anything besides imagination. Was the Billy Bob Thornton version more accurate as to the look of the Mexicans, I thought so!

Given that there is close to a 40 year gap between the two movies and the multiplicity of resource material that has been made available in the interval there is no excuse for the Thornton version not to be more accurate.

No tri-color shakos from the evidence. Wayne had those in his film.

Yes the Wayne "look" was each unit dressed in Blue,or Red,or White, some cav in grey others colored, and a civilian style / sombrero group also. Thornton is pretty uniform on the other hand. Maybe somewhere in between is close , maybe not!

As far as I can make out, the Wayne film was almost total fantasy as regards historical accuracy and that applied to the dress and uniforms as well. The more recent film did a great deal of research even down to the Mexican Cazadores being armed with Baker rifles etc etc. Also the dress of the Alamo defenders was described as 'dirty Dickens' rather than the cowboy gear being worn in Wayne's film. All in all I would go with Billy Bob Thornton's film, especially his take on Crocket's character. Of course there are inaccuracies (artillerymen in the infantry assault, the Mexicans calling James Bowie 'Santiago' which means 'Saint James' instead of Iago etc) mostly for dramatic effect but all and all it was very close to the history.

I thought I had read that Wayne's uniforms were fairly close to correct for the 1820's? The "target" shakos were used then, right?

One way or another,you have to love those really neat multi-colored uniforms in the Wayne movie.
Regards
Russ Dunaway

What about that tricorne thingy the one bloke was wearing? Seems odd to me.

Years ago, a friend of mine had some ideas about the Mexican uniforms in the John Wayne movie.

He shared a book with me, which contained many on-the-spot watercolor sketches made by a visitor to Mexico City in the 1820s or 1830s. (Please forgive me: the name of the artist escapes me.) Most of the quickly-executed paintings are of civilians going about their day-to-day business. But a few of the paintings feature soldiers and officers in uniform, some of whom are wearing rather garish uniforms (if memory serves me correctly.)

My friend believed that the folks who made the John Wayne movie did attempt some research, and possibly came across the contemporary paintings of this artist. However, the paintings depict troop types such as staff officers, etc., which were pretty extraordinary and couldn't be found outside of Mexico City. Thus they didn't really reflect the real appearance of the Mexican army in 1836.

Anyway, that's my buddy's opinion.

On the other hand, maybe John Wayne's people just did what they wanted to, Hollywood style. In the book "Alamo Movies", by Frank Thompson, there are some Mexican uniform costume sketches on page 72. Some of them don't look too thoroughly researched.

Wayne's film may have used these as reference material for the movie.

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Tricolor visible on top of shako.

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White tropical uniform

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Dragoons or line cavalry

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Blue coated Presidial lancer

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Grey coat Presidial lancer. The color is faded so it could be interpretted as gray.

I'm not defending Wayne's film. The BS antics of Bowie and Crockett's delta-force Tenesseans gets really annoying. His research was flawed to begin with and he was constrained with what costumes were available.

Andrew

I expect Andrew is correct, that looks like a source.

Didn't Disney use the target top shakos as well?

In the DVD of the Alamo, the extra "John Wayne's Alamo" has the continuity artist John Jensen saying they created costumes based what was available at the major coustume supplier. It alos shows uniform sketches from the film which seem to be based on a German print of the Uniforms of the Mexican Army from 1826 not 1836.

Andrew

"What about that tricorne thingy the one bloke was wearing? Seems odd to me."

picture

Or, more correctly:

picture

from

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Painted by Stephen Seymour Thomas, it can be seen in the San Jacinto Museum:

tfaoi.com/aa/5aa/5aa302.htm

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Allen

Allen,
Again you are a prime example of why I enjoy TMP. You often provide excellent links and insightful commentary. Thank you.

And in this thread, I too had some doubts over the Houston character's tricorne "thingy" but obviously the movie's costume department also spotted the paintings so indicated by Allen "aecurtis". Thus my "Hollywood is being 'creative' again, darn it" beliefs have now been assuaged.
cheers
…dh
P.S. : the hat still looked silly and anachronistic however….

Keep in mind that Seymour was painting a generation or two after the event (in 1898). Houston himself had passed away thirty-five years before. Could Seymour have consulted still-living eye-witnesses? Possibly. But the hat could still be anachronistic!

Allen

Chapter eight page 162 from the Texian Iliad by Stephen L. Hardin. Quote" Houston did not look the part of a commanding general. He wore a plain Cherokee coat over a rustic buckskin waistcoat. His only symbol of rank was a cavalier's feather in his hat, which he had shaped to resemble a revolutionary war tricorne. A saber hung at his side, in his belt, which supported trousers that clashed with his coat, he had stuck a flintlock pistol. Strapped to his highheeled boots were spike-rowelled silver spurs of Mexican pattern. Most of the time, however, he wore moccasins in lieu of boots Unquote."

I'm a big fan of the period and my library reflects this.

Cheers,

Helen

I have nothing to contribute to the discussion, but do feel the 'roundel' on the top of the shako would be a disaster when playing lawn darts.

Interestingly, when I last visited the Alamo (which was a while ago) one of the dioramas in the Visitor Centre has little Mexican infantry with shakoes with roundels

Page 148 of "Blood of Noble Men" has a black and white drawing of the scrum at the north wall, with Mexicans shown in various states of dress. The caption by the artist Gary Zaboly provides some extra details about the scene:

"A fusilier-corporal strikes at a slow moving soldier with a wooden switch; the soldier wears a red-white-and-green bull's-eyed shako more common in the 1820's. In the foreground, one soldier sports red shoulder-wings, also typical of the earlier decade, while next to him another man wears his (white) canvas fatigue jacket in place of a lost tailcoat."

I highly recommend that book, of course. It's a great combination of illustration, analysis, history, and the closest thing we have at the moment to a "Alamo companion."

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Oh and (this is me tooting my own horn), I'm supposed to have a board game about the Alamo published this year. The game, designed with someone else's system, will be small and simple, easy enough for children (I hope) but with enough history to make it interesting. Here are some details:

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Brilliant, Helen: thanks!

Allen

I agree that BLOOD OF NOBLE MEN is the best single book on the Alamo.

And I look forward to the game.

Andrew

It looks like you nailed this one down. The Wayne Alamo Mexicans have so much in common with the pictures you provided, some nearly exact! Maybe some of those older styles were still in use in 1836 ( maybe not at all)! Likely it is just the Wayne people using what they could find and what they thought looked good! Thorntons version is likely more correct as to Mexican Army looks! But it certainly does answer where the Wayne version got its Mexican Army Look in part!

From my research on the Alamo conflict I have found many sources which are not in agreement. I have read material which supports various uniforms, but I do not think there is a 100% accurate consensus on exaclty what the Mexican army wore at the time of the battle. Thus there is room for interpretation.

In my Mexican army I decided to go with the John Wayne approach, and give each column a distinctive uniform, so they can easily be recognized during the assault. So is my Mexican army 100% accurate, probably not. Is it 100% inaccurate, probably not. But it works great for me.

My copy of Knoetel's "Uniforms of the World" shows the Wayne uniforms or describes them.They may have used that as a source.

Hi

Would any of you refuse to game with figs that you thought "looked wrong"?

R

Someone else's figs? No.

The remake got the position of the chapel wrong! What the …! That was just bogus!

Eediots!

Rocky

They would have to be EXTREMELY WRONG for me to be that boorish! It is possible but not likely, maybe LOTR Orcs for Mexicans would qualify as over the line for me!

The remake made an artistic decision to put the chapel in a more photogenic position.

Hi

Doc, I have gamed with napoloeonic gamers who would refuse to allow your division to have the wrong regiment as painted in it. So, while as a modeler I love researching the issue as a model, I have run into gamers who do this.

The funniest was living in Pittsburgh a decade ago where I was regularly invited to games that never happened because of this particular issue!

In the recent movie, I loved seeing how often they got things right, seeing the zapadores…….ummm. But I don't have that figure.

Rocky

The image from the Alamo DVD that was used as the basis for the Mexican uniforms.

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Thanks,
Andrew