Kraussian | 02 Feb 2011 5:41 p.m. PST |
First let me state that I am a proud owner of both the hard copy and PDF versions of Lasalle. In fact, Lasalle is my rules of choice for Napoleonic wargaming and I'd recommend it without hesitation to anyone looking for a good, fun and approachabe set of Napeoleonic rules that fully capture the period flavor. That being said, I've just read an analysis claiming that Lasalle was a flop. The logic behind this assertion was that Lasalle's first and only print run was only for 700 copies, and that the very fact that it didn't go into additional reprints proves how badly it sold. The writer compares this against Black Powder, which has already gone into numerous print runs and have sold more than 16,000 copies. I own Black Powder too, but for some reason I just couldn't find its appeal. It felt too generic, and like a typical Games Workshop rulebook (i.e. Warhammer) with a light veneer of horse & musket warfare. I much prefer Lasalle over Black Powder any day, and in fact I'm planning to sell away my copy of Black Powder. Am I part of a small minority? The numbers sure seem to suggest so. I know that some may say that it doesn't matter how popular your favorite set of rules are, as long as you like them. While there's truth in that, it may still prove difficult for me to find new opponents as I'm planning to move soon. |
average joe | 02 Feb 2011 5:52 p.m. PST |
I will only point out that Lasalle is obviously not doing well, as it has not received thirty votes to create its own board here on TMP. By contrast, despite being decades older, Empire has garnered that much support. (I now kind of feel like a guy that has just thrown a Yankees fan into the middle of a Red Sox bar
) |
John the OFM | 02 Feb 2011 5:53 p.m. PST |
Does it matter what some twit on the Internet says? YOU bought it and YOU enjoyed it. Shouldn't that be all that matters? |
Condottiere | 02 Feb 2011 6:00 p.m. PST |
700 copies? I think the author of that article has his facts wrong. But I'm sure Sam can provide the actual numbers. In any event, Lasalle was produced by a one man publishing operation, namely the rules author, who does not have the resources of the Black Powder people or Games Workshop--or the Slitherine/Osprey group that produced FOG and threatens to publish a Napoleonic set as well. |
14Bore | 02 Feb 2011 6:05 p.m. PST |
There have been some great tv shows that don't make it, that doesn't make them bad, just a lot of people who missed out. |
Condottiere | 02 Feb 2011 6:05 p.m. PST |
While there's truth in that, it may still prove difficult for me to find new opponents as I'm planning to move soon. Have you tried the Honour Forum opponent finder? |
Gallowglass | 02 Feb 2011 6:05 p.m. PST |
I've just read an analysis claiming that Lasalle was a flop. Link? |
50 Dylan CDs and an Icepick | 02 Feb 2011 6:08 p.m. PST |
"Lasalle's first and only print run was only for 700 copies" No, it was 2000 books. It's now available as a PDF, and has sold approximately 1000 more. I underestimated the demand for the books, much to my regret. They sold out in five months. Had I known they would sell so quickly, I'd have printed more at the outset, when it would have been much cheaper to do so. But of course, the problem with printing old-fashioned hardback books, is that you've got to guesstimate in advance how many you'll need, and then invest a big chunk of money, and
Hope for the Best. Since I've never discussed these numbers online before, I'm not sure where that person got his
"information," but for the record: nobody could afford to print only 700 copies of a color hardback book. The per-unit costs would be astronomical. It only gets feasible around 2000 or 3000 copies. You've got to be willing to drop a lot of money and print a large run each time. It's a big risk for a one-man company, and I'm a conservative guy when it comes to money. If it sells out very quickly, then you have to decide whether or not you should spend another big chunk of money, and hope that the next batch will sell that quickly, too. Many a wargaming publisher has gone under, chasing that dream! I know some horror stories. One guy had ten thousand copies (!) of his game in his garage for years until his wife finally made him haul them all to the dump! ("But honey
look how cheap it is per-book, when you print ten thousand copies
") Since my previous games had all sold in the @3000 copies range, I decided not to take the risk, and to keep it in circulation via PDFs, instead. (I thought that the smarter thing to do, was to save the money to launch the next game.) I'll be more willing to do a larger run for the next game. Live and learn. best, Sam PS – I know the printer who printed Black Powder. He and I have corresponded several times. The figure you listed above for Black Powder is not correct, either. (But yes, Black Powder has sold a lot more than Lasalle. And good for them! I bought one of them!)
|
Lest We Forget | 02 Feb 2011 6:15 p.m. PST |
Selling 700 copies (fact needs confirming) of any rules in the current economic climate is not a "flop." How many people purchase a rules set and never play it? My hat is off to anyone that develops a rules set. If I sold my entire first print run I'd be overjoyed. Perhaps it was wise business decision-making. I try to buy rules to support the authors even if I chose not to play them (given learning curve, lack of opponents that want to participate, etc.). Edit: Author replied as I was typing. Good to see the 700 figure was incorrect. |
CPBelt | 02 Feb 2011 6:16 p.m. PST |
Hey, whatever makes you happy. It's a hobby, not a popularity contest. You don't need anyone's validation. Yeah, I own and love Black Powder. I also own and love Napoleon's Battles for different reasons. Not that I play much Naps as it is
:-) |
aecurtis | 02 Feb 2011 6:16 p.m. PST |
"Link?" You must stop to look at car wrecks, too! Allen |
John the OFM | 02 Feb 2011 6:30 p.m. PST |
Joe, Lasalle has not had a Poll dedicated to it. Yet. |
Sysiphus | 02 Feb 2011 6:36 p.m. PST |
What the OFM said. i and several of my gaming friends have embraced the rules, and enjoy them immensely (thank you Sam!). |
McWong73 | 02 Feb 2011 6:43 p.m. PST |
The only Naps tournament I've seen run in Australia in the past five or so years was for Lasalle, and it was quite the success. Maybe some expected it to have the same sort of impact as FoW did, but really you're comparing apples to oranges in that instance. |
Gallowglass | 02 Feb 2011 7:01 p.m. PST |
You must stop to look at car wrecks, too! Wasn't looking to rubberneck so much as wondering what criteria were used to determine and subsequently establish "flop" status. For the record, I very much like Lasalle. I also very much like and enjoy Black Powder and General de Brigade. Own all three. |
galvinm | 02 Feb 2011 7:04 p.m. PST |
I have Lasalle. Have not got around to getting Black Powder yet. |
aecurtis | 02 Feb 2011 7:13 p.m. PST |
'Wasn't looking to rubberneck so much as wondering what criteria were used to determine and subsequently establish "flop" status.' Bogus data, it seems. Sorta like sayin', "Yeah, that sign says to slow to 25mph for the curve, but I know I can take it at 60! A guy at the bar said so." "AAAAAAAaaaaaaaaa
" |
Sparker | 02 Feb 2011 7:16 p.m. PST |
Interesting discussion. Both sets are great, but I think Black Powder with its slightly laid back and 'atmospheric' approach will appeal more in the UK, whereas Lasalle would appeal more in the US, as its a much more 'tied down' 'lawyer-proof' approach, lending itself to competition gaming. Be interesting to see the respective sales figures to see if I am talking utter rot
(Competition gaming is anathema to me, because the one strand that seems to run throughout warfare through the ages, its that people tried to avoid fighting on equal terms
You want to test your intellect with finely balanced forces, try
Chess!) |
sillypoint | 02 Feb 2011 7:24 p.m. PST |
I've got both, they're cousins. |
Shagnasty | 02 Feb 2011 7:36 p.m. PST |
I bought neither, they're cousins. |
rmcaras | 02 Feb 2011 9:22 p.m. PST |
I've got LaSalle. My non-expert view on BP is it probably has pretty pictures [and thats attractive..ooooo shiny!] But I read some blogger's play test with it of an ACW and when they talked about launching regimental attack columns at each other, I figured the rules perhaps, were not for me. Even to read and look at the shiny pictures [well if goes on remainder prices, maybe] |
John de Terre Neuve | 02 Feb 2011 10:05 p.m. PST |
Let's look at it this way, at midnight, EST on the 2nd Feb there were: 389 different posts on the Black Powder Forum 743 on the Lasalle Forum 124 of the Republic to Empire Forum. I believe they were all released roughly the same time. Res ipsa loquitur ps: I own all 3 |
Diadochoi | 02 Feb 2011 10:23 p.m. PST |
Got both, gave Black Powder away while Lasalle got me painting 28mm Napoleonics (the couple of thousand 15mm figures on sabots just aren't the same) |
Brent27511 | 02 Feb 2011 10:30 p.m. PST |
Does it matter what some twit on the Internet says? YOU bought it and YOU enjoyed it. Shouldn't that be all that matters? The OFM hit the nail on the head. |
McKinstry | 02 Feb 2011 10:42 p.m. PST |
I've got both and probably prefer Black Powder just for the tool kit nature of it but LaSalle is good work. I don't know how to define flop but I'm pretty sure LaSalle or any other rules set that someone took the time and effort to develop, playtest, invest in and have the guts to put your work out in public for all to see wouldn't qualify. In the gamer context I'm a little more confident defining arse clown and trying to take cheap shots at anothers product using bogus sales figures probably does qualify. Since publishing games rules isn't subject to SEC disclosure rules, the number 700 was clearly pulled out of a rectal orifice and just used to justify whoever wrote that articles prejudice. |
fuzzy bunny | 02 Feb 2011 10:48 p.m. PST |
I've also owned all those mentioned
Like them all for different reasons. Have set about doing our own version of Napoleonic rules with a friend because we're not satisfied with any of the commercially produced,
not that we will actually publish our work for anyone other than friends. Was a very big Empire supporter before that crew became so weird. Put all my copies of Empire and all the supporting crap in a box and buried it. Waiting for it to extricate itself,
since that's what Scotty and his minions seem to believe. Even re-based all my old Empire units to 1 to 40 scale to complete the transformation. Hallelujah
I did my best, it wasn't much. I couldn't read, so I tried to touch. I've told the truth,
I didn't come to fool you. And even though it all went wrong I'll stand before the Lord of Napoleonic Rules
With nothing on my tongue but Hallelujah! I like many of Sam's ideas and the way his game plays
Will |
ratisbon | 02 Feb 2011 10:56 p.m. PST |
This is nuts! But then the willingness of gamers who play one set of rules to deprecate all others is nuts. It never ceases to amaze me how willing gamers who are incapable of putting two words together are to criticize a set of rules. Mostly I have found these critics don't have a clue about what they are criticizing. LaSalle is a good set of rules which are not only playable but also have added to the continuum of rules design when it comes to Napoleonic gaming. I don't agree with everthing in the rules, but then who agrees with everything in a set of rules. My chief criticism is it was underpriced and too few copies were printed. Good Gaming. Bob Coggins |
Defiant | 02 Feb 2011 11:21 p.m. PST |
If Lasalle was a flop, which I strongly doubt it was. It would not have been due to any inherent design fault but more so because of the proliferation of Napoleonic game systems already out there. This is a very poor market to try to enter I think. |
trailape | 03 Feb 2011 12:12 a.m. PST |
Hey, I think Lasalle is great. Not terribly concerned what others think. It's got me playing Napoleonics, (and a mate of mine) after playing pretty much just ancients for the last 20 years. CHEERS! |
frostydog | 03 Feb 2011 3:07 a.m. PST |
>The only Naps tournament I've seen run in Australia in the past five or so years was for Lasalle, and it was quite the success.< Sorry but there have been plenty of Napoleonic comps around Australia. The last Lassale comp was at Moab in October and it died same with Blackpowder at Cancon. But can you really gauge the popularity of a rulset by the size of or number of comps. Lassale and Blackpowder and plastic figs seem to have brought many gamers back to Napoleonics or Horse and Musket in general they just prefer social rather than comp games. |
nsolomon99 | 03 Feb 2011 3:31 a.m. PST |
Have to agree with frostydog here. I'm not sure you measure wargaming successes by what is observed at a tournament. Plenty of wargaming goes on outside tournaments. |
blucher | 03 Feb 2011 4:01 a.m. PST |
Short answer – no it isnt a flop :) |
The Nigerian Lead Minister | 03 Feb 2011 4:10 a.m. PST |
Not a flop for me. I have two of those hardback copies so I can loan one out to friends before games. I like it, and it's my preferred Napoleonic set. I have Black Powder, but I find the rules too loose and generic for my tastes. If someone puts on a game, I'll play, otherwise they sit on the shelf. But that's just me. |
MikeHobbs | 03 Feb 2011 4:37 a.m. PST |
Does it matter what some twit on the Internet says? YOU bought it and YOU enjoyed it. Shouldn't that be all that matters? I never thought I would say this but:- I agree with John the OFM and I'll take dawghouseing for it |
Evil Bobs Miniature Painting | 03 Feb 2011 4:51 a.m. PST |
I agree with Mike Hobbs. This is supposed to be a hobby. Play what you like, not what someone tells you to like. |
Klebert L Hall | 03 Feb 2011 5:32 a.m. PST |
No, No! LaSalle was a fop. -Kle. |
ochoin deach | 03 Feb 2011 5:50 a.m. PST |
Sink me, Kle. Was he, damn my eyes? |
brevior est vita | 03 Feb 2011 6:18 a.m. PST |
My 'Google fu' is usually pretty good, but I can't locate any mention online of the written "analysis" cited by the OP, other than this very discussion. Could someone kindly let the rest of us know where we might be able to find the piece, so that we may read and evaluate it for ourselves? In any case, it sounds as if the writer – whoever that may be – failed to do adequate research for their "analysis." Cheers, Scott |
Cerdic | 03 Feb 2011 6:26 a.m. PST |
Surely something is only a 'flop' if it fails to meet its expectations. Lasalle sold out and continues to be played around the world. What more would anyone expect from a Napoleonic Rules set? Some other periods may have greater domination by one or two sets of rules. If expectations of Lasalle were to dominate the Napoleonics rules market then you could maybe make a case for it being a flop. But in reality the Napoleonics market is just too fragmented. So no, not a flop
. |
GreenMountainBoy | 03 Feb 2011 7:12 a.m. PST |
Lasalle got me to finally paint and base up my Napoleonics. We've been playing it, and really enjoy it. Don't really care what some blogger thinks. I'm looking forward to Blucher- Sam better print more copies, this time! GMB |
aegiscg47 | 03 Feb 2011 7:25 a.m. PST |
Selling 1,000+ of anything in the wargaming hobby in this day and age is to be considered successful. Most war board game companies nowadays won't even print anything unless it generates at least 500 pre-orders. The days of something like Avalon Hill's Panzerblitz selling over 100,000 copies are dead and gone. Even though I don't own or have never played Lasalle I would consider it to be successful by today's standards. |
Kraussian | 03 Feb 2011 7:26 a.m. PST |
Wow, the very number of replies to this thread proves just how wrong the "flop theory" is! The "analysis" I was referring to wasn't writen in English, so the vast majority of you won't be able to read it. That's why I didn't provide a link in the first place. Now I highly suspect that the direct opposite (i.e the writer didn't quite understand what he read in English, being a foreign language to him) is true. It's just that this writer was so adamant in his claims and "factual numbers" to back them that I wanted to confirm them. Nice to know that it's completely bogus. Like I mentioned in my original post, I normally wouldn't care less whether a particular rules set is popular or not as long as me and my close friends like them. But I'm planning to move to another country soon, and I wasn't sure how readily I would be able to find opponents if my rules set of choice is "dying out". I was somewhat hoping for news that Lasalle was going to reprinted, as it's more difficult enticing a newcomer to Napoleonic wargaming to buy a rulebook unless it's got pretty pictures (which the PDF vesion of Lasalle doesn't have). |
kreoseus2 | 03 Feb 2011 7:31 a.m. PST |
LaSalle is my first and only Napoleonic rulebook , well done sam. |
Caesar | 03 Feb 2011 8:36 a.m. PST |
The number of people who have been declaring Lasalle a failure since it's release blows my mind. What do people have against this game that they try to create such negativity around it? |
Der Alte Fritz | 03 Feb 2011 9:05 a.m. PST |
A thousand plus copies printed and sold sounds like a success to me. |
Rebel Minis | 03 Feb 2011 9:07 a.m. PST |
I have played LaSalle and I like it. Mike |
toofatlardies | 03 Feb 2011 9:20 a.m. PST |
It seems clear that the OP was fed the wrong information. Sam is entirely correct, to produce 700 copies of a rule book to the standard of Lasalle would be absurdly expensive. Volume is the key to keeping print costs low, and that in itself presents some risks. In order to get a decent unit price you have to be talking about a minimum of 2000, and that can take a lot of capital up front, which potentially represents a serious risk for the author/publisher. The fact that Sam has successfully sold all of his hard copies in what is essentially a short space of time is proof that the rules have been successful. More importantly, the fact that so many people are playing them and enjoying them is an even greater indicator of success. |
brevior est vita | 03 Feb 2011 9:53 a.m. PST |
The "analysis" I was referring to wasn't writen in English, so the vast majority of you won't be able to read it. That's why I didn't provide a link in the first place. If I may humbly suggest, please go ahead and post the link anyway. Then we can decide for ourselves whether or not we will be able to read it. |
Gunfreak | 03 Feb 2011 10:11 a.m. PST |
I love Lasalle but I also don't love it. On one side it's an every thing in one book, it's like Black powder only with a spesific Napoleoinc feel, it's easy simple but has a definate Napoleonic flare, something BP dosn't have, also the army builder is also great fun, you don't need to use it, but for people starting out in Napoleoincs I think it's a blessing, here you have black and white easy to use army list that are short and easy to read. But on the other hand it's is a bit simple, I don't care if it takes a long time to play, I feel I need more just more rules that are more. |
parrskool | 03 Feb 2011 10:12 a.m. PST |
I like Lasalle. Very clear rules for that particular level of play. |