"Bavarian coats" Topic

I'm not into Napoleonic wars but have some friends I game with that enjoy gaming with Black Powder. We played ACW today. I should say they played. I just stood around and got slaughtered. However they also us BP for the Napoleonic wars. I don't mind borrowing Yankees or Rebs because I sure as hell are not going to paint them. However I'm toying with the idea of painting a few units of Bavarian. The problem I have is trying to determine the correct paint colors. Knötel for the SYW and Cantler for the Napoleonic wars show darker coats than what is seen here: link

What is the consensus (I could actually write that with a straight face) as to the proper paint color to use for Bavarian coats, normal line. Also, are there some informative websites for 28mm Bavarians.

Hi, you can do a search here and find more than a few threads on this.

The most common I've seen is a Deep Sky Blue and Magic Blue both from Vallejo for the base color and highlight from there. Also, I know that Foundry has a 3 paint set of Bavarian Blue as well.

Ask 5 people about this and you're likely to get 5 different answers.

It is often referred to as cornflower blue, so looking at them will help.
If you have anywhere which sells Lowenbrau beer, that uses Bavarian blue too :)
As it happens, I have a Bavarian flag on my wall in the paintnig room, bought in Bavaria. It is nowhere near as light as the ones on your link – closer to the blue on the windows toolbar.
The colour on the coats would fade but I'd still have the shaded parts on the coats much darker than on the linked picture.

I believe the dye used was exactly the same as the Prussians, they just dipped it fewer times.

I went with a blue that matches the Bavarian Flag…I figure that's close to "cornflower" blue.

Ray

What specific paint colors are you matching it to?

I used Vallejo Medium Blue on my 15mm Bavarians. You can see a few pics if you scroll down;

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From some experience of researching Bavarian uniforms, I would suggest that Cantler's paintings offer the best representations of Bavarian uniforms in the early 1800s. Whilst there is a general presumption that there was one, single characteristic colour ("conflower blue") for Bavarian infantry uniforms between 1700 and 1900 (with a small break in the mid-1700s), there appear to be subtle, but noticeable, differences. The late 19th Century colour appears to be lighter than that in the early 1800s and early 1700s, for example.

I suspect that the suggestion of using the same dye as everyone else, but dipped fewer times is wrong. The "gap" in wearing the traditional colour around the SYW period was because of the poor finances of Bavaria; it simply could not afford the extra cost of the distinctive hue, and during this time they reverted to wearing Prussian-style uniforms (so presumably the dye for these was much cheaper).

Another misconception is to use the modern, duller/flatter mid- blue used on BMW badges, state heraldry and beer logos. This is a much more modern colour and you can see from the link below that the blue of the cornflower is very different. The latter can be quite variable and has purple and lilac hints, which can be spotted in the Cantler paintings (which show quite a wide variation in colour among the line infantry, even in the same year/campaign). Incidentally, during the Franco-Prussian War, Bavarian uniforms reputedly turned light purple from the soldiers' perspiration.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornflower

However, this is not the whole story vis-a-vis Napoleonic uniforms. Cantler shows considerable diversity, and there are surviving uniforms (and I think also surviving bolts of cloth that have been kept in storage) in the Bavarian army museum at Ingldstadt, including this officer's uniform of the 11th Infantry regiment:-

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Clearly, nothing like the sky blue often seen on the games table!

This link shows two details of a painting showing Bavarain infantry at the battle of Polotsk in 1812; it also shows the contrast with the dull blue of the artillerymen and the "royal" blue of the surgeon and staff officer:

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The artist was a guy called Kobel, who was contemporary and very familiar with military subjects, and so is reliable. IIRC, this painting is in the state palace and may be obtainable as a postcard, or poster.

The front cover of the book "A Soldier for Napoleon" (ed. John Gill) is another painting of the battle of Polotsk, by Gottlieb Bauer, which shows Bavarian infantry in uniforms almost as dark – allowing that they are in the middle distance – as the gunners in the foreground.

Note that both paintings of the 1812 campaign – and contemporary depictions of 1809 Bavarian infantry – all show white trousers, something most figure manufacturers ignore for some reason. In fact, if you wanted a good depiction of Bavarian infantry on campaign 1809-1814, you could do worse than British line infantry of the period, with head swaps. You need to file down the shoulder tufts, take off any buttonhole lace, and alter the canteen from round/wood to square/metal with milliput, but otherwise they are pretty close.

I hope that helps.

I agree with Supercilius Maximus

Here another painting about Bus sur Aube, by Kobell as well.

Also not – how high the bread bags and the mess tins are worn.

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Interesting method of slinging the cartridge box – as if they were on the march and not anticipating action (I'm not familiar with this painting). Or possibly about to storm a fortification and their officers wanted them to use the bayonet and did not want to risk the attack faltering as the men stopped to fire/load – although I would have thought they might have dropped their packs for that.

They are marching straight into the battle.

I agree the cartridge boxes sit very high.

It was more the central position under the back pack that surprised me – as if they were being tucked out of the way (hence my thought that the men might have been on the march, or just completed one).

Check out the Leinhart and Humbert plates, which I believe were published around 1900:

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DCW,

Unfortunately, these plates have either faded with time or else the artist(s) assumed that the colours of more recent Bavarian uniforms (1870s/1880s) were ok for the Napoleonic period as well (I suspect the latter), as the blue they use for the line infantry and generals is far too light.

See the image of the surviving officer's uniform I posted earlier in the thread. Here are some others:-

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I painted my initial Bavarians with a "Cornflower Blue," but as several posters noted above (and a search of this forum will reveal) is that the overall color was a darker blue than "Cornflower Blue."

I started using the color linked by Supercilius above and considered my first two battlions' uniforms as having "faded."

I finished all the Bavarian line, light, cav, and arty in 15mm two months ago (took two years, but I was painting other Austrian units also). Adds variety, but I wished I'd checked here earlier than I did.

I think the Lienhard and Humbert plates are the origin of the super light blue of the Bavarians – up to then – like Richard Knötel (and not his son Herbert) depicted the Bavarian blue quite correctly.

Also the Bavarian blue of 1870 or later was not a bright as in L & Humbert.

As for 1870

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and

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Thanks, von W. I've not done any real research past the 1815 period, but as you say the blue in the painting is very dark – almost (dare one say it!) a Prussian blue. The clothing on the mannekin is reminiscent of the Humbrol enamel mid-blue that everyone used for the French Light Infantry after the publication of that faulty Osprey book.

I think it could vary from time to time, periods of lighter and periods of darker hues.
However – taking especially account of original clothings, they seemingly are more darker than usually depicted in prints.

Yes, in fact I wonder if the use of "cornflower" to describe the blue is itself misleading, since the flower is nothing like as dark as the blues in surviving Napoleonic and F/R War cloth (which also don't seem to have the purplish hint that the flowers have).

Very helpful discussion! Notice in the Bus sur Aube painting by Kobell posted above that the Bavarian line infantry with WHITE gaiters – not black as is the usual depiction. Also, the officers are wearing blue pants, not white.

Also, the mess tin/canteen and haversack they are all wearing seems to be missing from the Napoleonic Bavarian miniatures I've seen – at least in my preferred scale of 15/18mm.

DCW,

For some reason, no manufacturer seems to want to do Bavarians in campaign dress – Foundry in 28mm and AB in 18mm do some of their infantry in trousers, but even they don't have any personal kit on them.

I agree – it would be nice to see Bavarians in campaign outfit – like for 1806 / 06 / 07

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