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"Battlefront WW2 Rules (Fire & Fury) " Topic


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DanLewisTN11 May 2010 7:38 p.m. PST

Read some older posts about these rules and have ordered a set. One of the issues about the rules was that some games took way to long and I have in fact see that myself. Seems the key is to not try and put too many miniatures on the board at one time. (I can't imagine anyone ending up with too large of an army can you?)

Anyone with experience with these rules give me some idea of how much to field in general? Let's say I want to try and finish the battle in 4 hours. Typically we would have a multi-player game with 4-6 players. So let's keep it simple for the moment..if it was just tanks, what's reasonable for each player to have?

Scott MacPhee11 May 2010 9:31 p.m. PST

Just tanks? The beauty of the system is the way it handles combined arms, so you may find that fielding just tanks doesn't provide for a very fun game.

We usually field about a battalion a side for 3-6 hour games. Once you have the hang of the rules, you can start adding assets to the battalions and still finish within four hours.

Andy ONeill12 May 2010 12:53 a.m. PST

Just start small and build up.

Jemima Fawr12 May 2010 1:35 a.m. PST

As has been said; start small (1 or 2 companies per side) and build up.

Manoeuvre checks can be the thing that slows it down, but there isn't really a way to avoid them, as it's the core of the system. However, there is an easier way to do them:

Take the unit that is in the worst situation – e.g. the infantry squad that is Disordedered, miles from the Boss, under artillery fire and very close to enemy tanks – do the Manoeuvre Check for them. If they pass, the whole company is also going to pass it as well, so just move on. There is no need to individually calculate for each and every unit in the company.

Andy P12 May 2010 1:45 a.m. PST

Once you get used to the system you can tell by the situation if its worth rolling for, if you have a full strength Infantry company not under fire and cant see the enemy you know fine well its going to be fine so dont roll.

Its about experience and practice, myself and RMD have ceen involved in brighade level games with a Battalion each per player, see forum for pics of the Bovington game we play each year.

Also you will find some of the best and most historical scenarios on the Web.

As for your initial question, we did a range of small scenarios for beginners. Especially designed to introduce people to the rules, see for example my scenario on Ingouf Farm.

Any qusetiosn just email me..

DanLewisTN12 May 2010 3:32 a.m. PST

I found the scenarios on the BF web site. And saw the one you were talking about Andy. I've got a ways to go…I've only got North Africa stuff right now. But could use a good excuse to start painting European miniatures.

Also, I didn't mention. My collection thus far is all 6mm and plan on continuing with that. I actually think the rules will work better with 6mm because the field of battle looks less crowded and hence more realistic. I'm thinking I can keep the same range as is used with 15mm. Would work well on my table also.

Dexter Ward12 May 2010 5:52 a.m. PST

Limit initial games to 1 or 2 Maneuver elements (companies) per player, and you should finish in 3 hours or so.
That's what we've found, anyway.
Once you start having 4 MEs per player, it slows down.
It's not the fastest set of rules, but as others have said, once you've played you get a feel for what dice rolls are needed – so just roll the dice and only if you've rolled low (or high) depending on what sort of roll, do you need to bother checking stuff.

Jemima Fawr12 May 2010 6:46 a.m. PST

I agree entirely with Andy's and Dexter's comments. As has been said – after a few games the modifiers and results become second nature.

I agree entirely re 6mm – it's only because I like the aesthetics of 15mm models that I persist with them! The scale footprint of a 15mm tank is HUGE! :o)

Lately we've been playing with 15mm models but using the 20mm ground-scale (see the Operation Windsor: Carpiquet Airfield game report), which works really well.

Andy P12 May 2010 7:24 a.m. PST

I currently (SUSH dont tell RMD) am changing to using 10mm vehicles, still as asthetically pleasing to the eye but looks better ground scale.

the Arnhem scenario actually uses the 20mm groundscale due to the fact a historical sized board would actually be an A4 shett of paper at the rule groundscale.

donlowry12 May 2010 9:41 a.m. PST

We usually field about a battalion a side …

How many models represent a battalion?

Jemima Fawr12 May 2010 3:38 p.m. PST

Don,

One 'Unit' (i.e. a base of figures) represents a single infantry section or a company (or higher) commander or 2-3 heavy weapons. So a British infantry company weighs in as 1x Commander unit, 9x Infantry (one of whom has a PIAT) and 1x 2-inch Mortar. Each 'unit' has 2-3 figures according to taste. I use two figures per unit, so the company weighs in at 22 figures.

A full battalion would have four such companies plus HQ, Mortar Platoon, Carrier Platoon, Antitank Platoon and Pioneer Platoon, plus attached MG Platoon and FOO – a grand total of around 110 figures, three 3-inch mortars, three 6-pounders, two Vickers MMGs, fifteen Carriers and two Jeeps.

pnguyenho12 May 2010 4:25 p.m. PST

I suggest that each player have only 1 maneuver element. In terms of infantry, that is generally 1 company which, as stated above, is about 10 stands. Any more units and the game can slow down, especially if you want to finish in 4 hours. My friends and I were experienced (2 games a month for 2 years) and we would take a whole afternoon (6+ hours) to play a large refereed scenario with 4-6 players and 2 ME each; of course, we socialized a lot, too, so that added to game time, but if you really want to finish in 4 hours, start with 1 ME per player.

Great set of rules. Still my favorite detailed set for WWII. Too bad my gaming time is now 4 hours once a month.

Phong

Andy P13 May 2010 3:20 a.m. PST

How many of you are UK gamers?

Get yourself to Bovington tank museum for the show in July and see battlefront used at brigade level..

1815Guy13 May 2010 7:03 a.m. PST

For 4 hours – two or three infantry companies and a company of tanks as attacker, defender half that but in terrain, a battery of off board artill per side.

These are excellent rules, no doubt about it.

(We usually reduce the model ratio though)

Jemima Fawr13 May 2010 7:39 a.m. PST

Just to add to Andy's invitation – please come and play the game with us. We're happy to teach.

DanLewisTN14 May 2010 3:35 a.m. PST

Well I live in n Carolina so I can't join u. Did visit uk once. Thoroughly enjoyed it. Stopped at store that sells Heroics & ross and bought a lot of stuff. That was in 80s before u could buy it in us
.

Andy P14 May 2010 5:35 a.m. PST

being abroad doesnt stop you, we have an Aussie visiting us this yeara nd again in 2013

DanLewisTN14 May 2010 6:25 a.m. PST

Hmmm I will see if I can fit it I to next years budget.

DanLewisTN15 May 2010 9:17 a.m. PST

I see that the armor value for AFV in BF is a single digit number. Seems that for the current generation of popular rule sets, that's mostly what everyone is doing. I guess that's what you sacrifice in order to have rules that move along at a good pace.

I just going through the rules. I really like how they handle spotting.

Dexter Ward17 May 2010 3:18 a.m. PST

The spotting rules (and the artillery rules) are two of the best things about BF:WW2.
The other thing I really like is that they handle infantry, armour and any combination thereof very elegantly.

Jemima Fawr17 May 2010 10:58 a.m. PST

A good tip for keeping games manageable is to slightly increase the transport capacity of transport vehicles. For example, give Sdkfz 251 and M3/M5 halftracks a transport cap of 3T instead of 2T.

This greatly reduces the number of vehicles you have to squeeze onto the table and it also has the subtle effect of making mechanised infantry companies slightly more brittle in that they have a lower starting strength.

PilGrim17 May 2010 12:59 p.m. PST

danlewistn

Not sure what you mean about a single digit armour value. All vehicles have an aggregated armour value based on front and side \ rear armour, ie a Sherman is 4 front 3 side, and an size value to reflect how easy they are to spot. Not sure what else you can have other than turret and hull values, which may be fine for platoon level games but are lost at Battalion level.

Unlike other WW2 rules sets the actual values are not the result of a direct x mm of armour at y degrees = z value but are based on a broader basket of factors, so for instance the difference between armour value 4 and 5 is more than 3 to 4. The combat results are not quite as straightforward as they first appear either

Nice to think of them as current generation, but they are now 10 years old, so more "tried & tested". Damned fine set of rules

gregoryk17 May 2010 2:28 p.m. PST

Battlefront:WWII has without doubt the best scenarios on its site, and I use them with 6mm, too. You can even put two tanks or guns on a stand for even better visual appeal. Great game!


Cheers,
gregoryk

DanLewisTN18 May 2010 6:23 p.m. PST

"Not sure what you mean about a single digit armour value. All vehicles have an aggregated armour value based on front and side"

"Nice to think of them as current generation, but they are now 10 years old."

PilGrim…I suspect you are younger than I and don't have the same perspective.

My first wargame was at 16 years old in 1970. The rules were homemade, by a history teacher in S. California. I still have a copy of these rules. There were 6 hit locations, just for the front armor.

I still have a copy of Tractics, don't know if you've heard of that, but copies of it are for sale on Amazon for $200. USD

In the 80's, I used Tank Charts extensively, and there was 3 hit locations: upper hull, lower hull, and turret. We finished pretty good size games in 4 hours with 40-60 tanks on the board.

Why use 3? The PzkwIIIM has an effective armor on the upper hull of 74mm and the lower hull is 56mm. That's pretty significant when a 2 pounder if firing on you. The difference between upper, lower and turret values on something like the Panther is much more dramatic between the 3 locations.

Rules like Panzer War and Schwere Kompanie use two armor values, one for Hull and one for turret. I suspect that was a compromise to reduce the amount of data and spead up the game but I can't speak for the authors.

Rules written by Gary Blum, Gary Gygax (of TSR D&D fame), and Donald Featherstone are among the first generation of authors that that blazed the path for where we are today.

Later it was Brian Stokes, Frank Chadwick and Bruce Rea-Taylor who published ground breaking rules sets that lead the 2nd generation of rules.

So yes, to me, a 10 year old rule set is part of the "current generation" although I'm not sure whether we are on our 3rd or 4th generation.

But I would consider Blitzkrieg Commander, Flames of War, Mein Panzer, and Battlefront WWII among the many rules that are popular and seem to share a common theme of greater simplification for greater playability.

I haven't yet played BFWWII and am just starting on Chapter 3, but it's a bit unsettling to me to have armor values that range from 14mm up to 180mm condensed down to just 5 different armor values of 1 through 5. I'm optomistic that I'll find these rules as you all have recommended,to be enjoyable.

I play historical miniatures because I want to simluate history, while still having a playable game. I'm not interested in tournaments. It's WWII not the Final Four. When I reach the point that I feel like the historical simluation is gone, and I'm only playing a game, then we may as well play with plastic tanks and green army men.

So first rule for me, of a good set of rules is, DON'T lose the simluation, don't lose the history, don't make all the tanks the same. BFWWII promises to simulate WWII tactics and rewards combined arms so I'm looking forward to seeing that come true over the coming weeks.

Dexter Ward19 May 2010 2:31 a.m. PST

Remember that each model tank represents 2 or 3 actual vehicles in BF:WW2. Also, remember that a 'kill' may just be crew morale failure or some mechanical problem, not a penetration.

The sort of detail you are talking about is appropriate for low level tactical games, which BF:WW2 is not.

Lion in the Stars19 May 2010 1:03 p.m. PST

I see that the armor value for AFV in BF is a single digit number. Seems that for the current generation of popular rule sets, that's mostly what everyone is doing. I guess that's what you sacrifice in order to have rules that move along at a good pace.

Like some of the old-timers have said, games with higher detail about killing the tank exist. *I* certainly don't want to play them, since I find rolling my way through 'only' 5 charts to finally get a result of "Crew Inconvenienced" is not conducive to a fast game when I have 20+ tanks on the field. If I have one or two tanks, then sure, bring on the detail.

As a Battalion commander, I care about the location and effectiveness of each company, and am aware of the status of each platoon. I don't care that Tiger 211 has thrown a track due to a hit by a 75mm, I care that platoon 21 is engaging the enemy Shermans (and giving a good account of itself), but is effectively pinned in position.

DanLewisTN21 May 2010 3:10 p.m. PST

What is rough terrain in this game?

Dexter Ward25 May 2010 3:19 a.m. PST

There are many different terrain types defined – open woods, cleared woods, rocky ground, and so on.
They affect troop and vehicle movement differently; some require bog down checks or breach actions to cross.
They also all affect spotting.

Jemima Fawr25 May 2010 3:12 p.m. PST

The BF:WWII terrain effects table can be found here: PDF link

DanLewisTN26 May 2010 8:27 a.m. PST

Any rules to cover firing indirect w pziv?

Jemima Fawr26 May 2010 3:23 p.m. PST

Short-barrelled Pz IVs have an IDF capability printed on the card. Long-barrelled Pz IVs don't have it on the card, but there's nothing stopping you doing it if you want to use it as a scenario rule (ditto late-war British tanks firing semi-indirect).

Remember that BF:WWII is scenario-driven rather than points/army-list driven. It is not a game where something is disallowed if it is not 'codex-approved'. If you want to stick such a capability in your scenario because that's what they did then go for it.

DanLewisTN26 May 2010 5:23 p.m. PST

cool. I'm a scenario kind of guy

PilGrim02 Jun 2010 4:57 a.m. PST

Danlewstn

"Younger than I" – Made my day :-)

Yes, but not by much I assure you.

I have wargamed since the 70s , and played just about every WW2 rules set going, in scales from 20mm down to 6 mm (at least until about 10 years ago) and I discovered that in game play different armour values for just about everywhere makes Bleeped text all difference in the long run. Having multiple armour values and locations in rules is of limited and passing value if there is no mechanism to allow you to aim at specific areas, an aspect usually lacking. Similarly in my view taking that particular approach to over detailing a rules set is just setting up a series of assumptions that in themselves are unsupportable, such as trying to model each shot rather than the result of whatever your engagement cycle is.

I suppose it's each to their own at the end of the day, but give BFWW2 a try

DanLewisTN05 Jun 2010 3:18 a.m. PST

Well my local gamers in the area have evidently tried battlefront WWII in past years and I got a less than enthusiastic response to using them. So I'm going to try Mein Panzer instead. Too bad.

Thanks guys for all your encouragement and comments just the same.

onegoodman02 Mar 2014 1:35 p.m. PST

Hello,
We played BFwwii at the club with 10mm and it went well. Now I shall take my 6mm to the club and run a game, so please tell me the price for BattleFront WWII basic rules, and where to buy them. I probably will buy an expansion(s) when I work out what is available. Hard copy preferred.
Can anybody tell me how to get a copy of this (below), it looks like an advanced rule set. I don't mind paying but need a paper copy to use.
link
My 6mm figures have not been used yet, but I shall be posting a series of videos of how they were based and painted because they used new stuff and it turned out very nicely for somebody with no artist skill at all.

Jemima Fawr02 Mar 2014 6:18 p.m. PST

Glad you liked it. I've been playing BF:WWII since they were first published and I've never looked for another WW2 set since. You can get them directly from Fire & Fury here:

fireandfury.com/index.shtml

I see you're in the UK, so you also get them from Caliver books. Scroll down the page here and you'll find the rules and all the supplements:

link

There's also an absolute heap of free cards to download from the F&F website, for anything not covered by the published card-sets.

The website you linked is one of those bloody PDF pirate wesbites. I hate the twunts, as they leech trade away from the rightful copyright owners' website. Everything you see there is available for free directly from the F&F website, so god alone knows why people feel the need to upload my (and others') work onto other websites. It's probably just bait to get people to upload malware along with the pdf. Here is the genuine article:

Scenarios: link

Orders of Battle: link

Extra Cards: link

Extras: fireandfury.com/extra.shtml

Forum: link

The document you linked to is a bunch of 'optional extra' rules devised by Paddy Green and Richard de Ferrars. They're 'fan support' for the game rather than official advanced rules. You can find them here: PDF link

You'll find a lot more player-generated stuff on the website.

As you're in the UK, why not get in touch via the forum and come along to one of our games? The British forum members usually get together for a big game every year. Whereabouts in the country are you?

onegoodman04 Mar 2014 9:55 a.m. PST

Which forum?

Jemima Fawr04 Mar 2014 10:49 a.m. PST

The Battlefront forum I linked above. Here it is again:

link

Ark3nubis04 Mar 2014 9:52 p.m. PST

I haven't gone through your post fully Mr Davies but that's a really well done post for the other TMP'ers, great stuff, sets the bar for the rest of us,

A

onegoodman05 Mar 2014 11:59 a.m. PST

The only discussion related to game events was Link Farm,
which was all redundant posts. The same applies to Miscellaneous, Opponents wanted. All redundant. No moderator then :/
Where else are the forth coming games listed? Will it
be current?

Dexter Ward06 Mar 2014 3:26 a.m. PST

What forthcoming games are you asking about?
Battlefront WW2 came out well over 10 years ago.
It and all its expansions are still available.
As far as I know there are no plans to bring out any more expansions, since the stuff there covers the whole war in all theatres.
So I'm not sure exactly what you are asking for?

Jemima Fawr06 Mar 2014 9:11 a.m. PST

I'm not sure I understand the question, but the link I gave you earlier was the main page for all the fora within the Fire & Fury Games website. It includes Battlefront: WWII, Fire & Fury and Regimental Fire & Fury. As with many fora, some of the pages haven't been touched in years, but remain for reference purposes.

The main Battlefront BF:WWII forum is here: link

It's relatively quiet, but it's a relatively small gaming community, so BF:WW2 players tend to post everything here rather than the subsidiary for a such as 'Opponents Wanted'. I'm a moderator and I'm still active there.

The threads relating to 'Bovvy' (i.e. Bovington) Games are the ones relating to our annual big UK get-together. However, for the first time in 10 years, Bovvy this year coincides with several wedding anniversaries and other wife-driven events, so we're either going to look for an alternative date/venue or leave it until 2015.

As Dexter says; The game came out ten years ago and card supplements were published then for the main theatres of war. Scenarios and orbats/lists continue to appear on the relevant pages on the website. It was once mooted to publish scenario books, further supplements and subsidiary periods, but the decision was made to just make them for free on the website.

onegoodman07 Mar 2014 5:28 a.m. PST

I thought that R Mark Davies (RMD) was referring to an event when he mentioned forthcoming games. Are there any monster games using BF rules? Something like a 3 player allied force attacking up a sector of Sword beach, facing a 3(?) player German defence.

Dexter Ward07 Mar 2014 5:36 a.m. PST

RMD has run some pretty enormous games – the scenarios for some of them are on the Fire & Fury website; he can porbbaly give you more details.
If you want a game to complete in an evening, don't have more than a battalion a side.

Jemima Fawr07 Mar 2014 7:08 a.m. PST

Sorry mate,

Yes, we'd normally be doing the final planning and painting for our annual Big July Game, but it looks like it might be off until 2015, which is a shame. Real life does sometimes get in the way. There are other venues mooted, but nothing confirmed just yet.

As Dexter says; don't do more than a battalion per side (2-4 companies) for an evening game, but we do run some fairly mega brigade+ sized games over two days:

link

picture

picture

picture

PDF link

picture

picture

PDF link

picture

onegoodman08 Mar 2014 10:06 a.m. PST

Well, all right then. A two day event, if you insist. Is there an events page link? I can do next week. I mean, if I have to.

onegoodman23 Mar 2014 11:40 a.m. PST

To avoid confusion, the last post was light hearted. I plan to get BF from Caliver at Salute then run a 6mm game. Maybe post some pics of the table afterwards.

Jemima Fawr23 Mar 2014 9:54 p.m. PST

Sorry, I missed your last post. Cool, I'll look forward to that! Jim Baker at Fire & Fury will post your photos on the gallery if you send them to him.

Andy P27 Mar 2014 4:20 a.m. PST

The annual Bovvy game has been moved as stated to warfare in Reading in November.
It will be an June 40 10mm bash, and will cater for both the Infantry and tank nuts out there.

Consists of a whole Panzer regiment and support facing off against various french elements including DCR/DLM and GRDI.

Jemima Fawr27 Mar 2014 5:52 a.m. PST

Tidy!

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