"Most Enganged British Regs in the AWI" Topic

Okay, so I have painted and based 6 regiments of 30 figures each for my British AWI army. I used Foundry figures depicting the standard British uniform with the 3 cornered hats and regulation coats. For facings, I used White, Red Yellow, Buff, Blue and Green.

So, in order to get the most use from these units, I would ask the experts here "What Regiments, in each colour facing, fought in the most battles in the AWI?"
I have to put flags in the hands of the flagbearers, so I need to know.

I already have separate Saratoga types for that campaign and the Southern Campaign is a whole other ball of wax.

My guess is that these types would have fought mainly in the North (Philadelphia, New York and New England battles).
Any and all help is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Red facings: 33rd Foot
Blue facings: 23rd Foot (Royal Welch Fusiliers) – tricorne may not be appropriate. Could use them as Guards, but they possibly never served in full uniform in America and would not have carried standards anyway.

(The 33rd and 23rd featured in the North and later served together through the Southern campaigns from 1780 onwards.)

Although most units would have abandoned the full uniform by late 1776 or early 1777 in favour of cut-down coats or sleeved waistcoats.

NB: Blue facings were for "royal" regiments only

Blue. A lot of Loyalist units had Blue.

Each British regiment in the field carried two colours. One was the "King's Colour":
picture
The second was the Regimental Colour, with a field the same colour as the regimental facings, with the union in the upper canton:
picture

So it doesn't matter which units they are the flags fit the regimental facings, not the particular regiment.

"Could use them as Guards, but they possibly never served in full uniform in America and would not have carried standards anyway."

Why do you say the Guards did not carry colours? Three regiments of Foot Guards served in America, the 1st Foot Guards, The 2nd (Coldstream) Guards and the 3rd Foot Guards. Are you perhaps getting confused with the Grenadier companies drawn from each foot regiment that operated as converged or composite battalions?

Ahh! Thanks Mike. That helps. Still need to know who fought in the most battles, though.

GNU, I have the 23 rd Royal Welsh as the Perry twins depicted them. They seem to have been one of the most active units in the war.

Mike, Those links don't show anything but a small picture of a 7 Years War site and does not show flags?

The Guard regiments also served as converged battalions, made up of some of this regiment and some of that. They left their standards at home.

<<So it doesn't matter which units they are the flags fit the regimental facings, not the particular regiment.>>

Only on the most superficial level – all regiments would have their number on the flag, and some regiments would also have an unique badge of some sort (eg 23rd had the Prince of Wales' three white feathers).

<<So, in order to get the most use from these units, I would ask the experts here "What Regiments, in each colour facing, fought in the most battles in the AWI?" >>

Aside from the 23rd and 33rd, who served together from 1779 onwards, the problem is that many of the longest-serving regiments saw little fighting. For example, the 22nd Foot was longest-serving buff faced regiment in N America, but spent a lot of the war at Rhode Island and saw almost no action elsewhere; the 40th Foot, by contrast, fought in many actions, but then went to the Caribbean in 1778 – though it did return near the end of the war and took part in Arnold's attack on New London. The 43rd was the longest-serving white faced regiment, and served at Bunker Hill and Virginia/Yorktown, but did little else in between; the most active "white" regiment was the 71st Foot – unfortunately, a Highland regiment, so not capable of being represented by your be-tricorned figures (btw, the 23rd wore hats for virtually the whole of the war and their bearskin caps were put into storage).

Overall, the most active regiments were those who were sent to the Caribbean in 1778; almost all had fought in the Boston, New York and Philadelphia campaigns, and at Monmouth CH.

I would suggest basing your figures in such a way that you can have a selection of command bases, or at least colour parties, so that you can represent a range of regiments – and as Rudy Nelson says, don't forget the Loyalists. Some of the most active regiments post-1778 were Provincials.

This site might help:
fifedrum.org/crfd/BD_1.htm

"Mike, Those links don't show anything but a small picture of a 7 Years War site and does not show flags?"

They should give you a small picture of a flag in each case. Does for me …

"The Guard regiments also served as converged battalions, made up of some of this regiment and some of that."

Yes, indeed.

"They left their standards at home."

What evidence can you offer to support this statement?

"Only on the most superficial level – all regiments would have their number on the flag, and some regiments would also have an unique badge of some sort (eg 23rd had the Prince of Wales' three white feathers)."

Well if you want to go to the level of having several command bases so that you can have exactly the correct flag, then fine.

<<What evidence can you offer to support this statement?>>

I believe that the journal kept by Ensign Glyn of the 1st Foot Guards contains an entry that confirms there were no colours as he remains with his company when promoted to lieutenant. I have seen it quoted over on Yahoo! RevList (IIRC by the Guards' specialist, Ms Linnea Bass), but couldn't begin to tell you when or what the over-riding subject of the particular thread was – sorry.

"Overall, the most active regiments were those who were sent to the Caribbean in 1778; almost all had fought in the Boston, New York and Philadelphia campaigns, and at Monmouth CH."

Super Max..OK. Can you name them? I would be a great help.

From my research, it appears that a lot of British units fought in one or two battles and then went to the West Indies or Canada. What was the reasoning behind that?

blue; 4th Foot was in it from Boston through Germantown. The other blue facing were all fusiliers or Highlanders -- but there were several good Loyalist units in red faced blue.

My white regiment is the 17th. It distinguished itself at Princeton (by not getting wiped out) and was at Brandywine, Germantown, and Monmouth. Then captured at Stoney Creek in 1779 and Yorktown. White was alight grey, which is cool.

My buffs are the 40th, who defended the Chew House at Germantown. Also at Brandywine and Monmouth.

Green and yellow are harder, and each color had different shades used by different regiments.

Bill, don't overlook the black facings. There were several, and they were relatively active.

33rd is only red faced, but they were Cornwallis' own and saw a lot of action.

I haven't decided on my green faced regiment yet -- like yours, it's painted but not flagged. But the 63rd Foot had Lincoln green facings, and was at Long Island, Fort Washington, Brandywine, germantown, Monmouth, 1780 siege of Charleston,and some companies were at Hobkirk's Hill and Eutaw Springs. Some were mounted.

I have the pale yellow 26th Foot ready, including Flag Dude's flags. It was not in most of the big battles, except Monmouth, but saw a lot of action all over the place in small detachments.

I want a brighter yellow unit as well, but haven't chosen one nor painted it. The 10th most likely, as it was at Long Island, Brandywine, Germantown, and Monmouth.

I'm also considering the 28th and the 38th.

The links to the British colours at Kronoskaf – Project SYW do not work because they point directly to the images instead of to the articles containing the images. If you use these links instead, this should work:

For the 48th Foot King Colour:

picture

For the 40th Foot Regimental Colour:

picture

Hey Doc Thanks so much. You are a great help.

5th Foot (light green). Maybe only the 23rd and 71st exceeded them for the sheer amount and intensity of combat.

The 28th Foot was a heavily engaged yellow-faced regiments, but I can't say for sure that they were *the* most heavily engaged.

64th Foot _ South Staffs seen tons of action during the AWI including Hobkirk's Hill in 1781. White Facings.

Sorry my bad. I meant black facings for the 64th. Must have been thinking of the 47th. Another heavily engaged unit.

I did a bit of "research" a few years ago, but I lost the fruits of my labors.
Basically, I did a comparison of OOBs from wargames scenarios of the battles from scenario booklets, or in the back pages of rules. Primary sources, indeed!

As I remember it, the following regiments showed up in at least 3 battles, from Boston to Monmouth:

3rd foot, the Buffs. Buff facings, unique flag.
4th foot. Blue facings. again, a unique flag design.
5th Foot. Puke green, Gosling Green, goose green, etc. Unique flag.
23rd Foot. Blue facings, unique flag.
28th Foot. Yellow, sort of generic yellow flag.
33rd Foot. Red facings, generic white/red facings flag.
38th foot. Yellow, as above.
71st Foot. Highlanders.
42nd foot. Highlanders.

Don't forget that the MOST commonly emloyed units were NOT regiments, but converged grenadiers and converged light infantry battalions. The Cornwalis Task Force. I think that Cornwalis, when he was a junior general, was a wargamer. He hogged all the LI, all the grenadiers, all the Guards, Highlanders and jaegers.

Thanks to all who took the time and trouble to answer.

Sorry, time lag over here in the UK.

4th, 5th, 10th served from Lexington/Bunker Hill through to Monmouth (OFM's list is a good one, but the 3rd only arrived in the Carolinas in 1781); 64th was another, but only really engaged at Brandywine; 17th is an excellent choice, as posted above; 43rd (white), 76th (green) and 80th (yellow) served in the Southern campaigns.

"Could use them as Guards, but they possibly never served in full uniform in America and would not have carried standards anyway."

Why do you say the Guards did not carry colours? Three regiments of Foot Guards served in America, the 1st Foot Guards, The 2nd (Coldstream) Guards and the 3rd Foot Guards. Are you perhaps getting confused with the Grenadier companies drawn from each foot regiment that operated as converged or composite battalions?

Hi Mike

No, I understand the roles of converged battalions of light and/or grenadier companies.

Each company of each battalion of each of the three regiments of footguards provided 15 men to serve in America. They were formed into an ad-hoc brigade of around 1,000 men divided into two battalions

Initially, the battalions each contained one light, one grenadier and three centre companies. In late 1780 [after Guilford CH but before Yorktown] one light and one grenadier company were disbanded.(According to Greg Novak, who seems to have some interest in this war) :-)

As none of the Foot Guard regiments left England in full, I find it difficult to believe that they would have sent their colours overseas. If it was desired that an entire regiment of Foot Guards should serve overseas then this could have happened, but it didn't.

I'd be interested if anyone has evidence to the contrary. I have been researching and gaming the AWI for 25+ years and haven't come across any other interpretations of the composition of the guards brigade.

cheers!

No proper colours sent over with the Guards--Elements of the 3 regiments served as mentioned above--It has been stated that they had "flags"--These may have been made up to take with them but as far as I know no colours were sent over--Otherwise surely the Converged Lights and Grenadiers would have had colours as well…..

@Gnu2000 & archstanton73

Thanks, chaps for your explanation, I didn't know that about the Guards before (hence my questions!). Do you or anyone else know any sources for further information about this?

My personal choices

For blue regiments one can doe the 7th or 23rd

Red is the 33rd – Cornwallis own lads

For Green the 63rd

For Black the 64th

Yellow – 38th

As to the Guards

The Brigade of Guards on American Service (the complete name) was as mentioned made up of elements of all three Guards Regiments – I don't have the make up here at work but they sailed to American as a line regiment of eight center companies, one grenadier company, and one light company. Three of the center companies were formed from the 1st Foot Guards, and two companies each from the 2nd and 3rd Guards. The 4th center company was made up of detachments from all three regiments – as were the light company and grenadier company

SOURCE – The Brigade of Guards Orderly Book – - the Brigade of Guards is one of the few AWI units for which a near complete set of orderly books can be found for the war.

On arrival in American they were reorganized into two battalions – each of four center companies and one flank company – the grenadier company served with the first battalion – the light company served with the second. ALL regimental lace was removed at this time – with the exception that the 1st Battalion kept a white lace edge on their shoulder epaulet.

At some point each battalion converted one center company to an additional flank company – so that each battalion had noth a grenadier and light company – but these additional companies were disbanded

By the time they end up in the South – they have been reduced to two three company battalions and two flank companies, one each of grenadiers and one of lights

They did not carry the colors of their parent regiments – but my Guards Brigade does carry a pair of Union Jacks – as they are the Guards after all – and need to strilke fear into the hearts of my American militia

My .02

Greg Novak

Thanks, Greg!

Greg's modesty prevents him mentioning that the first of his two books on AWI orbats contains a detailed explanation of how the Brigade's organisation changed throughout the war (at one point – 1779 – there were actually four flank companies, 2 grenadier and 2 light, which operated as a "spearhead" battalion for raids out of NYC).

Ed Richardson's book on flags and colours of the AWI lists two flags – Major's (third) Colour 3rd Foot Guards and a company colour of the same regiment – which "anecdotal" evidence suggests were carried in America (and indeed the junior ranking of these flags would make them the logical choices for a "battalion of detachments" – a common method of sending Guards units overseas). However, the absence of any mention of colours in accounts of the Guards' service in America suggests none were carried – at least not in the field.

Camp colours were supplied to the Brigade late on in the war (1779 or 1780 from memory), as part of a shipment of such flags for numerous regiments serving in America.

They did not carry the colors of their parent regiments – but my Guards Brigade does carry a pair of Union Jacks – as they are the Guards after all – and need to strilke fear into the hearts of my American militia

My .02

MY Guards carry Colours because at the time I painted them, I thought they did. I even found a "credible" source. (It may have been a book of Napoleonic Colours…)
I hand painted them, because back in the Day, we painted our own flags, yessirree. Kids today…
So, MY Guards carry Colours for reasons every bit as valid as Greg's.

Just for the record, OFM, my previous comment was just for the record. In the spirit of the age:-

I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it.

Just looked on BritishBattles.com and the 4th, 5th, 23rd Royal Welch Fusiliers,28th, 33rd, 40th, 71st, 42nd Black Watch, Gds and Royal Artllery seem to have served pretty much everywhere….. Depends a lot on whether you want to concentrate on the North or southern campaigns..

The 23rd often wore tricorns instead of Fusilier mitres in battle.

Also period sketches by soldiers in the field etc, show uniforms as actually worn on the field to be a far cry from the Regimental standard and parade ground tradition. Think of turnbacks unbuttoned, tricorn brims let down, etc. Very slovenly.

Also of course all soldiers everywhere and every when have had a tendancy to modify and adapt kit, wear what ever they can scrounge as replacements for worn out regulation issue etc.

Blue, Buff, Yellow and Green are good "generic" facing colours for British troops.

Greg Novack's books (available from Old Glory) do a very good job of summarizing who searved where, when.

"Think of turnbacks unbuttoned, tricorn brims let down, etc. Very slovenly."

Slovenly? Hurumph. I would say they were well kitted out for the field. :-)

Round hats are well documented, and anyone who has ever worn a cocked hat (or earlier period tricorne) can tell you what a useless piece of heargear it is.

Skirts were shorn, lace often removed (or not put on newly issued coats), hats were often cut down into a more practical headgear, and various pants (breeches)/legware was worn at different times.

Yellow does seem to be a good common facing color as is green and white. It gets a bit less common after that.

I saw on another thread mentioning some of the troubles at Fort Ti. Apparently you can add Fort Mifflin, near the Philly airport to the list of historic sites in trouble as well. Does not look good. :-(