"Saxons" Topic

Gents,
I previously posted a 'Clueless' call for help and Thanks 'Andygamer' for your assistance.

I am researching the Ramellies OB and I hark back toa reference to two 'Saxon' brigades broght forward to assist Churchill's push in the centre. As far as I can find, there are only two Saxon (Saxe-Goetha) regiments in Dutch pay at this time. If this is so I am faced with a dilemma.

Do I assume (acts always to be avoided) that the size of the 'Saxon' battalions (about 840 all ranks) could account for them being described as brigades? OR …

Is the term 'Saxon' sometimes used in this era to describe regiments more generally supplied from germanic states?

Once I have finished this mind-bending research to an acceptable first draft I intend placing it on the web on the upcoming Gourlburn Wargamers site to share and discuss.

I have a couple of OBs for Ramillies. I don't see any Saxe-Gotha regiments there. One is published in Litten's recent book on Ramillies. The other is something Iain Stanford provided for the Ramillies game in 2006 at Enfilade.

There were a few "german" formations around – Hanoverians for example.

There were several Saxon regiments at Malplaquet. Most of the Saxon army in 1706 was busy fighting Karl XII.

You can get a very good OOB for Ramilles, and other battles, here link

The same guy who did these also has a very detailed article on Ramilles coming out next year in one of the gaming mags.

On to the Saxons. I think that it is very unlikely that there were 2 'Saxon' brigades at Ramilles. Do you have any kind of reference to where you saw this? Certainly none of the OOB's I have seen mention and Saxons or Saxe Gotha troops as being there.

The Saxe Gotha units were basically standard sized and similar to many others. But like them they would be a lot smaller in the field. They couldn't be considered a 'brigade' and in any case were not with the army.

The Saxon units did not join Marlborough's army until later in the war, basically after they were knocked out of the GNW.

It is I supposed possible that some commander at the battle had some kind of Saxon connection and so his units could be described as 'Saxon'. But I have never heard of any commanders that would be suitable. So I think it is most likely that it is just an incorrect reference.

I hope this helps.

they may have been regiments from German states that had a Saxe-So and So as their colonel e.r. Regiment Saxe-Meinigen from the Palatine..nice uniform
link
and scroll right down Saxe Meinigen are the red coats with green cuffs,,

Before they upgraded to exporting princes as royal consorts, the House of Saxe-Gotha had quite a good line in colonels-for-hire. During the mid-18th C. there were at least three regiments of that name around, in different and sometimes opposing armies. I'm not a specialist of the WSS, but it would seem plausible that any S-G unit at Ramillies would be of that type, rather than an actual Saxon unit.

This OB is a straight regiment listing warts n all of an OB on the Marburg digital archive site digam.net/?dok=3775
spellings are original.
a very Dutch/English/Danish affair with a sprinkling of Germans, what is your source for the Saxon statement?

First line cavalry (right to left)33s
Royal Escosoises
Royal Irlandoise
Lumly
Cadogan
Schomborgh
Wyndham
Wood
Garde Drag. Holl.
Gard du Corps
Opdam
Frechapel
Chanclou
Athloone
Pouvel
Dompre
First line infanterie 42b
Garde Angloisis
Orkenay
Godtfry
Daylrumple
La Loo
Sabin
Webb
Churchill
Mordant
Evans
Marcelnay
Stranger
Houw
Garde Dannoises
Scholten
Donop
Holstein Sonderborg
Erff Prins Pruyson
Lattorf
Heuckelom
Oxenstirna
Cappel
Hirzel
St. Pool
Berensdorff
Bronck
Nassau Wallon
Prins Lodewick v Hessen
Deelan
Nassau Woudenborg
Croon Prins
Zoutelande
Fscharner
Argyle
Bartwyck
Colyar
Murray
Gardes Holland
Fist line cavalry left wing 26s
Oostfrise
Eck Niell
Pentz
Roschifort
La Leck
Wurtemberg
Cralingen
Tilly
Garde Bleu
Carabiniers
Dopff drag.
Second line cavalry right wing 21s
Vander Nath drag.
Bennise drag.
Heyden
Cantensteyn
Baldewyn
Vittinghoff
Hunnerbeen
Rheedon
Hessen Homborgh
Second line infanterie 32b
Orkenay
Ingoldsby
Farington
Meredith
Tatton
North
Swartzel
Vooght
Wurtembergh Ols
Gromkau
Dedem
Heyden
Els
Huffel
Senck Seckendorff
Rantzou
Tecklenborgh
Vegelin
Ranck
Sturler
Aderkas
Berner
Keppel
Swartz
Pallant
Albemarle
Zalichs
Orange
Schlangenbourgh
Second line cavalerie left wing 22s
Teynagel
Driesbergh
St. Laurent
Grouesteyn
Emminga
Erpagh
Prince d’Orange
Smettau drag.
Bauditz drag.

Danish cavalry joined extreme left wing 21s
GL Rantzou
Dewitz
Wurtemberg
Uyterwyck
Brouckxdorff
Smettau
GM Rantzou
Lyff Regiment
Bonnart drag.

Thanks Gents – pretty well what I've been working with.

The reference to the saxons is found in James Falkner's Ramillies 1706 "year of Miracles" pp75 as follows: "Generals Schultz and Spaar, moved resolutely forward, supported by two brigades of Saxons under Count Schulemberg."

According to DutchRegiments.org Saxe-Gotha privided two infantry regiments for English and Dutch service from 1703 – no further details.

I'm checking across every orbat I can find and reconstructing my own set-up because I find the diagrams available wildly variable, sometimes too simplistic, sometimes forcing later organisational structures into a military culture which didn't exist at the time.

OK so now we have more information to go on.

First of all on sources. Yes I agree that there are a lot of bad sources out there but also a lot of reliable ones. The one I mentioned earlier is excellent as are some of the others that have been mentioned. Unfortunately Falkner and other 'popular' writers are generally rubbish & I wouldn't rely on them.

From what you say here I think that Falkner has confused two Schulenberg's. One is a Saxon commander and is fighting in the GNW at the time. The other is a Hanoverian commander and is at Ramilles. He is in charge of 2 brigades of mixed German/Dutch troops under Berensdorf and Murray – 5 Dutch (including 2 Swiss) battalions (Murray's Briagde), 3 Hanoverian battalions, 2 Hostein battalions and 1 Munster battalion (all these in Berensdorf's). Source for this are the OOB I mentioned.

On the Saxe Gotha units, well kind of, remember that a big chunk of the total army would at anytime be in garrison or on detachment or basically not with the main field army. The Saxe Gotha units are certaily part of this army but not at the battle. I don't know where they are, I could probably find out, but I would guess they are garrisoning something or busy elsewhere.

OK so I think we can forget the Saxon brigades, do you have any other questions on the battle?

dotte2009
Are you a member of that wargames club you linked us to? the OBs for Ramillies are not currently available

PS
Part of the 12 btns under GM Schulz that initially attacked Ramillies village were 3 Hannoverian btns -
1B Bernstorff 88 k&w
6A Brunck 151 k&w incl oberst Brunck
11B Tecklenburg 23 k&w
also seriously wounded GM St. Pol (died later in Lüttich)

Graf Bretlach: I am an ex-member of the club and still a friend to many of the guys there. I am told that the website is wrong and the OOB is available, certainly I have it. I am told the website will be updated ASAP.

Thanks, hopefully they may get a few more customers now.

merry christmas

Graf and dotte2009 – great stuff and many thanks. Isn't it a shame that when people write things which can be inacurate and they get published it can throw such a spanner in the works. It sems we will have to reconcile the 'saxons' to home duties.

How confident are you in the archived reference above for the Ramillies orbat? My feeling are that it represents an organisational structure rather than deployments in the field.

Certainly from a wargaming point of view I have enough information to proceed with my next round of purchases – just don't tell the wife.

Unlucky General: I am sorry I can't get the link to open to have a good look. But I have looked at it before and the key thing is the date of the thing. If the date is close, within a few days, then it is probably good for the deployment on the day of battle. The other problem with these sources is identifying the units. The spelling is often not good and also you can often have more than one unit with the same name.