"Highlanders vs Lowlanders" Topic

Which regiments in the Jacobite army of the Forty Five would be classified as "Lowland" regiments as opposed to the clan or "Highland" regiments? At yesterday's SYW Association, Christopher Duffy mentioned that the Lowland units formed the backbone of the Jacobite army. I'm not interested in discussion that statement, but I would like some direction as to which units were "Lowland" units.

I ask because I have no idea.

DAF,
Duffy lists them all in the back of his excellent 'The '45' which I imagine you must have. To compound it all, there are also mixed Highland-Lowland units as well.
Certainly I think the Atholl Brigade was the backbone of the
Jacobite army and that was lowland.

I think another complication is the division between Clan units and non-Clan units. The Atholl brigade was not part of the "Highland division" because it was a feudal levy rather than a Clan regiment. However it clearly contained Highlanders, and held the position of honour on the right-wing of the front line at Culloden. I notice from DAF's excellent blog that this is a unit he is considering raising next for his 28mm Jacobite project.

I am not sure that I agree with Christopher Duffy's statement that the Lowland units formed the "backbone" of the Jacobite army. The Highland division was the corps de elite. But the lowland units were a large part of the army, and their contribution has often been ignored. You will discover little or nothing about their role if you call in at the Culloden Vistor's centre. Sadly, the Tourist Industry needs to portray the '45 as the "last stand of the Clans".

A common Jacobite infantrymen from the '45 was an episcopalian lowlander from the East coast, with English as his mother tongue, not used to bearing arms, wearing little or no tartan, and armed with a musket and bayonet.

But its more fun to paint the Macdonalds of Keppoch!

I have a list of clans that fought in 45 and make up of some of the lowland clan regiments, I will need a few days to dig it out for you though, saturday I guess.

cheers
matt

I agree with what Ian says. However, I'm sure he doen't mean it, but he may upset some of the Lowland Scots with the comment about them speaking English. They use to prefer it to be said as "Auld Scots" with the nearest and closest English dialect being that of the North East of England (Northumberland and Northern Durham) where there are quite a few similar words. It was a language in its own right up until the Act of Union in 1707 where it began to get more Anglicised and eventually was absorbed into the English we know now. This probably didn't happen until the 19th Century so the Lowland units would have spoken their own Scots.

The use of the word 'Lowland' always conjures up the idea of Scots living south of the Tay River but it actually includes the coastal strip up the east coast passed Aberdeen which is north of the Tay. Those regiments shouldn't be described as Clans. The units of the Scots Covenanter Army from the Civil War period were mostly Lowland Scots.

The Atholl Brigade would certainly have been made up of a mixture of both Lowland and Highland men due to the lands they were raised from being owned by the Duke of Atholl and it's location in Scotland.There is a good chance they spoke Gaelic and Scots.
My own army has a mixture of both types of troops for this unit.

I know this war is portrayed as the last stand of the Clans as in effect it was. They were never raised again after this point and whether people like to say it or not they were persecuted for years afterwards. The Lowland units had a number of men executed or transported but they were fortunate enough to return to an area of Scotland where their numbers could be sustained. Those men who followed or were forced out after their Chiefs in the Highlands were of a generation where they were the only adults to carry on the family. If they died or were transported the line stopped there or thinned out.

Sorry DAF I think I've started a discussion about something else.If Matt can't manage to get back with a list of those Lowland Regiments I'll see what I can do to help. It's worth picking up the Elite Osprey book by Stuart Reid on the Jacobites of the '45. There's plenty of information in there.

I certainly did not mean to upset anybody with my comments – especially lowland Scots! I was just trying to make the point that their "mither tongue" was predominantly English (be it the Auld Scots or Doric versions) rather than Gaelic.

I have had a flick through the "Muster Roll of Prince Charles Edward Stuart's Army" (Aberdeen University Press 1984). For the Atholl Brigade, large number of Highland surnames in the unit (Robertsons and Stewarts dominate, but also Macdonalds – and 8 Campbells!). Two pipers identified, but no drummers.

If DAF choses to raise this unit in 28mm, perhaps a mix of 2/3 Highland figures and 1/3 Lowland figures? I am sure that Front Rank figures would fit the bill.

Their deployment at Culloden suggests they were capable of mounting the "Highland charge", but their performance at Falkirk indicats greater discipline than some of the Clan units. Perhaps this is what Christopher Duffy was getting at with his comments at the SYW Association Conference?

I have Duffy's book as well as the Stuart Reid Osprey and his Like Hungry Wolves book. I can't say whether one or all of these books are good sources or bad sources. I know that Duffy's book is based on the latest research and I tend to trust his judgement on such matters.

(BTW, Duffy is not a big fan of John Preeble, indicating that Preeble is responsible for a lot of the misinformation that exists about the Forty Five and the Jacobite Army).

My understanding also was that the area around Aberdeen was considered to be an area of Lowlander recruiting.

I want to be sure that I get my army composition "right" and understand that those of us who do not live in Scotland tend to work off of preconceived notions and misinformation, so we may not be clued in on local sensitivities RE: what constitutes Highland vs Lowland or pro-government vs pro-Stuart etc.

I had the preconceived notion that Jacobite support was not very strong south of the imaginery line running from Glasgow to Edinburgh. If that is the case, it doesn't seem like that leaves much recruiting area for soldiers in the remaining Lowland areas. I cheerfully welcome any discussion, commentary and correction that anyone cares to provide.

The Atholl brigade was not part of the "Highland division" because it was a feudal levy rather than a Clan regiment. However it clearly contained Highlanders, and held the position of honour on the right-wing of the front line at Culloden. I notice from DAF's excellent blog that this is a unit he is considering raising next for his 28mm Jacobite project.

Hi Ian -- I think that it was probably your comment that led me to making this inquiry on TMP. Thank you for the kind comments about my blog. I will have to rethink the composition of my Atholl battalions. Fortunately, I base all the figures on single stands so it is easy to shuffle the figures around and redeploy them to other units.

cheers

DAF

Hi DAF,
I think there was more support from the Lowlands during the '15 than there was in the '45. This was possibly due to the economic and political strategies of the Government following the '15 as they were trying to stop a repeat of the earlier rebellion. This certainly worked in the North of England as there were a lot less supporters for the '45 than there were for the '15. Of course there was also the seizure of lands from the Northern Lords who supported James III which meant most of them were living on the Continent to get away from the Government and didn't have as much influence over the local population.

The '15 was a much larger rebellion but quite often doesn't have the romanticism of the '45 and gets neglected. During the '15 there were a lot more Lowlanders involved on both sides but I think you would be right in saying during the '45 it would be more difficult to recruit from the perceived Lowland area. Having said that there was an influx of recruits from around the Edinburgh area after Prestonpans. It's amazing what the winning side can do for local morale!

Agree with Prestonpans – more support all round for the Jacobites in 1715.
But one of the striking things about the '45 is how little popular support there was for EITHER side. Most people didn not care who won and did not want to be dragged into it.

Replying to DAF, I forgot to mention that there is a possible contemporary illustration of a member of the Atholl Brigade. This is the depiction of "erluck Younger" from the Penicuik Drawings("Witness to Rebellion", 1996, p500). This clansmen, sword & targe + trews, is also reproduced in "Highland Clansman" (Osprey Warrior #21) p46.
McGhie of Shirloch is listed as an Atholl Brigade Captain in the "Muster Roll of Prince Charles Edward Stuart's Army"

English has been spoken in Scotland since Saxon times. It has been one of several tongues used, but has been the majority tongue for a very long time. When I did my first degree I studied medieval Scots poets like Henryson and Dunbar. It was no different from reading Durham dialect – a lot of loan words, but English all the same. Calling it Scots does not make it a different language! By the way Durham miners have/had a REAL non English language – called 'Pitmatic', only spoken by men. It is based on Old Norse and was used to communicate down the pit. Unlike Scots it is recognised as a separate language by academics.

As to the lowland/highland thing. I find it all extremely tenuous. Living a couple of miles uphill did not suddenly cause people to cast off their hodden grey trews and put a kilt on. In the 45, those will clan affiliations will probably have sought to accentuate their 'committment' by wearing 'clan-like' garments. Some without such loyalties will have 'dressed up' to look like big tough clansmen. Many with clan names will have rejected what they perceived as past barbarism and sought to look like 'civilised' people.

I personally think that the only real difference for us wargamers between Highland and Lowland regiments in the 45 will be the amount of firearms. I can't even see a morale difference or much of a training difference. It could even be argued that the 'Highland' culture of raid and counter raid made it perfectly acceptable to run or disappear.

As to dress, I favour it being as varied as possible, because it looks nice.

DAF,

Lowland names like Balmerino appear in the Jacobite order of battle and likely those who were tenants of the said gentleman would have worn their usual clothing and not have adopted Highland dress for the occasion.

To be accurate then you would need to know how many men the Lowland lairds brought to the fight, probably impossible. So some groups of hodden grey variously armed perhaps?

I'm sorry Beaumap but I think you've narrowed down the field a little too far.'Pitmatic' is not just specific to the Durham area, it is still a term used for the dialect of some people living within the North East Ex-mining community, in particular parts of South East Northumberland. It is also spoken by females as well and not solely for men down the pit, how else would they have been able to communicate with their men? Although the majority of mines closed over 20 year ago the local dialect hasn't changed. I'm sure my cousin would love to have known he was speaking 'Old Norse' down the pit when a 'Geordie' from Newcastle was calling him a 'Makem and Takem' for being a 'Wearsider'. I can't understand how they can recognise it as a separate language when it is just another part of the North East dialect as was the language spoken in the shipyards of the Tyne and Wear. People in Durham have a completely different accent to people in North Shields but they still speak the same North East dialect and can understand each other. Scottish speaking 18th Century people spoke a completely different language to Gaelic Scots living in the same country and this would definitely have made a big difference between the cultures.

Would it not be better to say Scots is a later version of Northumbrian as Northumbria extended right up to Edinburgh? I would think the majority of North East England dialects are closer to the Scottish dialect than to the South of England ones. Take the Borders for example, in particular Berwick. Scots and Northumbrian accents within a few feet of each other and all born in the same town. The Border is a very fuzzy boundry for accents. In Saxon times did all the Saxons speak the same language? I don't think they did. The English language spoken today is a mixture of all of those invaders (Anles, Saxons, and Jutes) from the East during the Dark Ages with a chunk of Latin, Norman and French thrown in for good measure.

As for the comment, "Living a couple of miles uphill did not suddenly cause people to cast off their hodden grey trews and put a kilt on. In the 45, those will clan affiliations will probably have sought to accentuate their 'committment' by wearing 'clan-like' garments" you've obviously not been around for a Derby Day football match between Newcastle and Sunderland. 12 mile apart in distance but a continent apart for all other behaviour and accent!

As I said earlier, units such as the Atholl Brigade would have been mixed in their dress due to the close proximity of Lowland and Highland cultures falling under the Duke's catchment area. It's not a case of one culture having to conform with the other to dress as they do so the wargames unit should reflect those differences in dress. A Highland unit would be dressed predominantly in Highland dress of the period and Lowlanders probably wouldn't have a kilt in sight. I think Lowlanders would be a little more colourful than grey. More browns, blacks and blues!

I must agree with you on the firearms issue however I would suggest because of the lack of guns in the Highland units they would have been trained differently hence the 'Highland Charge'.They couldn't stand and exchange fire as Continental Armies did so they had to close as quickly as possible. If they had been allowed to do this at Culloden when the Government troops were still deploying then the result may have been different.

Thanks Beaumap for stimulating a discussion on language,clothing and tactics.

Prestonpans – I think I strayed into several topics at once with my post. We clearly agree on the military side, which was the real subject. I couldnt resist commenting on lack of precision re 'Scots' language.

Yes, I have been to a Newcastle/Sunderland Derby – and did my PhD in Linguistics at Durham University. By Pitmatic I do mean what I posted, not dialect. Many North Easterners use Norse loan words in their dialect, which I agree does not make a different language ('cully' as a word for knife, 'gadgee' as a word for old man, 'marrah' for mate). True Pitmatic is a Norse language with English loan words. A Mackem and a Geordie speak exactly the same base dialect, but with different accents and emphases. Someone from Barny or Bishop will use different loan words, but it remains the same dialect.

However, if I was as precise as I advocate (!) I should have indeed said that today's Scot speaks a version of Northumbrian (although I would still claim that to be English!).

What is a Mackem and a Geordie? Please define. Thanks.

Mackem from Sunderland, and Geordie from Newcastle. Both cities in the North East of England. Outside of the region, people from the whole area are often described as "Geordies" – although this is not correct.
Older American readers may recall the accents of "The Animals".
Not sure how relevant this is to a discussion about the '45!

A Mackem is from Sunderland--From the saying "We Mack-em and we tack-em" Meaning "we make them and we take them" refering to the now nearly dead Teeside ship building industry…A true Geordie must be born on the banks of the Tyne--And must be found in "Big Market" on a Saturday night wearing nowt more than a tee-shirt and jeans regardless of temperature (usually about -20 in winter with wind chill)--The Lassies wear even less :P

Also Lowlander units in the 45 would have worn trews with a plaid over the shoulder--But otherwise they would have very much been the same as most Highlanders…

Beaumap you could have added Yem for Home, Ganning for Going as in Ahm ganning yem (I am going Home). Ganzie for Jumper/Sweater. Cully is actually Gully -a big knife. All good Danish. I'm not sure your right about Gadjee I think it might have Romany roots also Marra is probably a contraction of the Irish Mo Chara- my friend.

'A Mackem is from Sunderland--From the saying "We Mack-em and we tack-em" Meaning "we make them and we take them" refering to the now nearly dead Teeside ship building industry.' No its simpler than that, Geordies say Mek for Make and Tek for Take. Sunderland people say Mak and Tak respectively and accordingly are Mackems. Its not a term of endearment.

Slightly more on topic 'Geordie' was not a Hanoverian supporter but rather a pitmans safety lamp named after its inventor. Hence Geordies- a party people.

Replying to archstanton I can't agree that trews were Lowland Scots attire. Trews were the dress of the Highland elite, and perhaps copied by some Lowland officers, but surely not the rank and file?
Where Stuart Reid and Christopher Duffy have made a valueable contribution is to chart the way blue bonnets and aspects of Highland dress (tartan) became a sort of uniform for the entire Jacobite army (from the Prince downwards). This was feeding on the morale ascendancy gained by the victory at Prestonpans.
Duffy quotes an member of the Irish piquets who says they were the only unit of the Jacobite army not to be so attired.
Cumberland was considering issuing tricorns to Hanoverian Highlanders to avoid "friendly fire" incidents.

ian when I said trews I did mean the 17th cent equivalent of trousers ie britches--not always in tartan--ie true Trews!
The French Regiments were asked to wear a bit of tartan plaid as the Highlanders had a habit of shooting those that didn't!!
Tartan was very much the Rebels one bit of uniform--that is why it was so strongly proscribed after the war..

Archstanton, I now understand that when you used the term trews earlier you meant breeches (as opposed to kilts).
Tartan trews certainly seem to have been a fashion item for Highland Officers in the '45. I wonder why you never see them at weddings in Scotland today?

LOL--I think Rupert the Bear did for tartan trousers!!!