"A first for Ukraine" Topic

….assuming its true of course. But spanking a TU22M3 is a solid win for the good guys. All bar one aircrew survived, never mind, always next time to get the other three.

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The Russian Ministry of Defense has confirmed the loss of the Tu-22, but claims it was the result of a technical fault. The crash site is located 300 kilometers from the contact line, so it is likely that this is true. In addition, judging by the video of the plane crashing, it does not look very much like being hit by a missile… Two crew members were killed.

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Let me clarify: one pilot died – the crew commander. He forcibly ejected the remaining team members.
The point of impact of the plane is at a distance of 375 km from the line of combat contact.

Shot down or crashed it's still out of action.

Nothing in this world is eternal ;-)

Next time, hopefully, more of the crew will die. Crews are expensive to train and difficult to replace, so the more that die the better.

I hope it was the result of a shoot down. A technical error is all and well but that cannot be counted on.

The more planes shot down the better.

I'm glad the plane was shot down, too.
But hoping people will die?
How very Old Testament of you.
However you may wish to consider, Mat 5:43-45

And if you aren't a Christian, so be it. But Donne also might have some compassion to share:

"Each man's death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee".

Ochoin,

You are spot on. I am very uncomfortable with people routing for more deaths in this conflict. Over the years I have had the fortune of having both Ukrainians and Russians as students. My students would have been the same age as those killed in this conflict, so every time I read about someone routing for more deaths in this conflict, I think about my former students. I think the most humane ( and Christian) approach for US policy makers to take is to somehow facilitate peace and help find an end to this conflict. I am not a pacifist by nature and I do believe that the best way to secure peace is through strength. However the longer this war continues, the more unnecessary deaths occur, and the weaker all parties involved (including western nations who are spending their wealth facilitating this war) become. Some day all parties involved may need each other to face more dangerous and common threats.

We are all a product of our life and experiences. I was raised in the military, went to military school, watched my father deploy to multiple conflicts and listened to all the stories when he got back, then it was my turn and deployed to conflicts nine times. I've stood at vigil services more times than I can remember watching the coffins get wheeled out onto the pan at Bastion for the final flight home. Watching/reading about the enemy dying will always be a good thing for me, doesn't mean it has to be for everyone else of course. And I'm not saying it should. But there is a war on, the 'bad guys' are obvious as far as I'm concerned, and I want to see them die in large numbers.

As for quoting the bible at me? There are other sections of this forum for fantasy.

"Some day all parties involved may need each other to face more dangerous and common threats."

When are the aliens or zombies coming in your fiction?

The threat in the world is Russia, Iran, and China. You are exactly the kind of person who was willing to appease Hitler and Stalin.

Stalin was ready to come to the aid of his ally, Czechoslovakia in 1938. 30 Soviet divisions were waiting for a corridor to enter the territory of this country in order to engage in battle with Hitler. But the leaders of France and Great Britain forced the Czechs to capitulate (despite the guarantees given earlier), and the Romanians and Poles refused to let Soviet troops through, which is natural – after all, they themselves "gnawed off" territories from the Czechs together with Hitler… Spiders in a jar)))
I think you don't even know about this fact…

Gunny that wasn't called for. You don't need to mock someone else's faith. If you don't believe, fine, but belittling the faith, and Bible, of someone else is not necessary.

"Stalin was ready to come to the aid of his ally, Czechoslovakia in 1938."

Yes, Stalin was ready to split Czechoslovakia with Hitler, like they later did with Poland.

With Stalin as an ally, you don't need enemies. I really am amused by the fantasy worldview of some who live in Russia today.

But hoping people will die?
How very Old Testament of you.

Consider that they probably committed war crimes on their last mission.

"This was the plane that bombed Dnipro and Kryvyi Rih. We took our revenge for our cities and civilians," air force spokesperson Illya Yevlash told AFP.

Moscow Times: link

Reportedly one crew member is missing.

"Consider that they probably committed war crimes on their last mission."

Bill, I was tempted to refer you to Mat 7:1

However, as the Word of God seems to offend some, & metaphysical poetry seemingly has no effect, I'll turn to Aquinas instead:

"As every noble, generous man does willingly, that it is better to err frequently through having good opinion of a wicked man, than to err more seldom through having bad opinion of a good man."

Ah, Moral philosophy….
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" than to err more seldom through having bad opinion of a good man."

Are we saying Putang is a good man now?

No I can't say I am glad many orcs are dying now. But as evil minions of Putang there will be less to not make the Earth a better place.

Sho Boki, Poor Poland, how could she have imagined, when together with Hitler she was tearing Czechoslovakia apart, that she would soon become a similar victim)))
But at that time the army of Czechoslovakia was not much smaller than the German one, and if the Poles had come to the aid of the Czechs, they would have simply squashed Hitler and his claims. But the Poles then wanted to be allies of the Nazis, but not their opponents.

"I can't say I'm glad many orcs are dying"

Well at least you appreciate John Donne's thoughts even if your comprehension of what Thomas Aquinas said is, shall we say, somewhat askew?

Consider that they probably committed war crimes on their last mission.

Indeed, they launched missiles that hit a residential building (apartments).

The bomber was reportedly shot down with an S-200 missile (improved?).

Orcs, and before that (in 2014) Colorado beetles… It's interesting how the psychology of the West is inherent in dehumanizing people. Does this make it easier to kill? Are these relics from the colonial past?
It is interesting that in Russia they call the enemy by different names, but they do not deprive him of his human appearance. Here the Russians have something to be proud of…

Editor in Chief Bill, has the modernized ancient S-200 surpassed most modern air defense systems in range and accuracy? Do you really believe this nonsense? Oh, God… In fact, he was shot down by the "Ghost of Kyiv"))) This was his 57th air victory.

Look at this rocket. To use it, stationary equipped positions are required. The plane was shot down at the limit of its possible range, that is, it should have been practically on the contact line. With the current saturation of troops with reconnaissance drones and the use of satellites, this is simply impossible. The maximum for this missile now is to protect objects in the deep rear or re-equip it for attacks on ground targets, which is what Ukraine has done. And such missiles strike Russian border cities, and their effectiveness is very low, since they are very vulnerable to air defense.

YouTube link

Cuprum,"Yadda, yadda, yadda".

I have, of course, been reading various posts of yours, on & off, over a period of time, on many threads here.

You're not very good at this propaganda business are you? Frankly, I'm a little disappointed. I do realise that the Kremlin would not assign a top-notch performer to a wargames' forum but as even as a bargain-basement agent-provocateur, you're far from adequate.

Inconsistent, transparent, implausible… your particular skill set may have given Mata-Hari pause for thought but things & people have moved on.

I can't be bothered to school you but just one, of many, examples.

You wrote above, " But the Poles then wanted to be allies of the Nazis, but not their opponent".
So, on a forum full of history aficionados, you write that, surely knowing we all know about the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact? So you've reminded us off whom, precisely, did crawl in bed with the Nazis (Hint: Man of Steel but not Superman). When contemporary Russia is hotly engaged in an aggressive war visited on the ukraine, you remind of us the pre-WW2 Soviet unjustified attack on Poland?
I'm not sure if your bosses monitor your work, but if I were you I'd avoid walking past any windows.

I'm assuming you had *some* training but really, apart from comic relief, you aren't much chop as a Russian apologist.
I'm not trying to be offensive but maybe it's time to change your career? Taxi-driver? Mall security? A character in a Chekhov play?

That is a serious bit of kit to lose….turning out to be an expensive war. But aren't they all?

In regards to this whole ". . . in Russia they call the enemy by different names, but they do not deprive him of his human appearance" comment, there is this:
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A "holy war." Doesn't sound like you're fighting humans there, does it?

Destroying an enemy weapons system like the TU22 is a win at least in the short run. Crew losses for aircraft like this is part of the paradigm. E.g. like we saw in SE Asia, with a number of US B-52s, etc. being shot down. The US didn't want to lose any aircrews. But sadly, it happened. I'm pretty sure the NVA really didn't care how many US aircrews died. The same concept occurred in WWII and the Korean War.

It has been a long "habit" of troops making the enemy sub-humans. E.g. in SE Asia, the US troops sometimes called the VC and NVA "insects" etc.

It's all a part of warfare …

Editor in Chief Bill, has the modernized ancient S-200 surpassed most modern air defense systems in range and accuracy? Do you really believe this nonsense?

UK Defense Intelligence report: "…it is almost certain that the reports of the use of the S-200 missile are true and that it was another successful attack by Ukraine on the Russian Air Force."

Ukrainian Pravda: link

Gunny B,
My decidely uninformed opinion is that the good guys aren't allowed to win wars anymore. They have to play nice.
Personally, I think this just prolongs them.
And I am quite certain you know what Patton said about winning wars. Never been said better.

ochoin, look around – behind you is a "bad Russian" who wants to send you to the Gulag))) Paranoia is a severe mental disorder.
As for the division of Czechoslovakia, in which Poland also participated together with Hitler, this happened much earlier than the entry of Soviet troops into Polish territory. This is a historical fact and it is impossible to deny it. Even paranoid)))

BrianW, firstly, this is a statement by the church, not the state. Secondly, this statement was made after the Ukrainian authorities, by force and without any justification, on a state scale, took away property from the parishes of the Russian Orthodox Church and transferred it to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, dissenting priests and parishioners were beaten and imprisoned, exchanging them later as prisoners of war. And thirdly – where is the dehumanization here? In this context, holy war means the restoration of the "status quo" in the religious sphere in a given territory.

Legion 4 is part of Western military culture. That's more accurate.

Bill, "Ukrainian Truth" is an openly propaganda resource. The statement by British intelligence in this case does not mean anything other than the desire to support the morale of the Ukrainians and those who support them)))
Such an attack is practically impossible for technical reasons.

*That's* the best you can do?
Cupram my dear boy, in a battle of wits, you are sadly out of ammunition.

Ok, you can now consider yourself a winner.
You have defeated the real story)))

The real story..

twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1781376341750804484

Legion 4 is part of Western military culture. That's more accurate.

I'm part of Western military culture ? I think that is subjective … I will admit I am a student of history and beyond that the experiences and training of my decade + in 4 US Army Inf Bns while on active duty.

As I posted, "It has been a long "habit" of troops making the enemy sub-humans. E.g. in SE Asia, the US troops sometimes called the VC and NVA "insects" etc." …

Don't try to convince me of it being any different than in any other military, during any other conflict, during any other time in history. To say otherwise is ignoring the facts.

The Russians seem to regard even their own side as sub-human, judging from the way ethnic minorities and criminals are sent into the meat grinder.

Based on everything we have seen past and present, … that is very true …

Korvessa – Couldn't agree more. Good times create soft people, including our leaders. The West simply doesn't have the will or endurance to do what needs to be done.

I really wish the situation of 1938's Czechoslovakia wasn't used for…whatever Cuprum is using it for.

Especially given that the situation in Ukraine is quite similar to it. (except this time, the West is doing the right thing instead of appeasing)

Good times create soft people, including our leaders. The West simply doesn't have the will or endurance to do what needs to be done.

That seems to be the case sometimes … Especially with some of our leaders.

I would like to think after GWI, Somalia, the former Yugoslavia, A'stan, GWII and a few other places US troops[and some allies] were involved … With all those places where troops went in harm's way. I don't see how the current Gens could be "soft". But it seems to me … they are … Are they a reflection of our society as a whole ?

Those that have the "right stuff" seem few and far between … But there are a few out there. I met a few of the local ROTC Cadets recently at a dinner/meeting. They have what it takes in seems to me and many others of my Vet comrades. But will they be e.g. the 300 Spartans at Thermopylae ?

Poland had normalized relations with Nazi Germany in the early 1930s, and it seized Teschen when Czechoslovakia was partitioned after the Munich agreement, but it rejected Hitler's request for an anti-Soviet alliance. I'm not sure exactly what point he means to make, but it seems to me that his comments are meant to delegitimize the Polish government of the time. This is presumably done to justify the subsequent partition, although he has to lie to do it, by claiming Poland was a "German ally".

He's not the first Russian to tie himself in knots justifying his country's actions in 1938-40, though

Nine pound round, exactly, yes!

Plus, Poland and Czechoslovakia had disputes over Teschen since 1918, even resulting in a small war in 1919. They weren't on friendly terms at all as far as I know

So Poland using the Munich crisis to take over the contested territory is quite predictable. Any nation would do the same I believe.

Dagwood – The US regularly sends blacks and Latinos to war. Do you think they are subhuman? Thanks – I didn't know that.

Nine pound round, no, I am not delegitimizing the then Polish government, I am just demonstrating a typical Western approach – the same actions on the part of Russia are a crime, but on the part of Poland – "Any nation would do the same I believe."
Hypocrisy… What is allowed to Jupiter is not allowed to the bull)))

By the way, Soviet Russia and Poland also fought for these lands in 1918-21… First the Poles took Kyiv, and only then the "Reds" went to Warsaw.

What, Cuprum2?

Is half of the Poland split by the river Bug a contested territory? Is that what you're trying to say?

I think it's better to ask Belarusians and Ukrainians about this. After all, Russia annexed these lands to them. Do they want to return these territories to Poland as part of decommunization and the fight against Stalinist crimes?
I hope you at least know who Stepan Bandera fought against? In fact, he was a Polish citizen and fought against the Poles.
link

Poles, are you really ready to shout: "Glory to Ukraine – Glory to the heroes!"? After all, it was under this slogan that Bandera savagely destroyed your women and children… And now this is the official Ukrainian greeting. OFFICIAL! And European leaders are now speaking it from the official rostrums. This world is going to hell…

Cuprum2, you keep jumping from place to place and throwing whataboutisms around. But at least now we know that you do in fact support the imperialist method of occupying land if that land has majority of speakers coming from the occupiers land.
I think a certain moustachio'ed guy from Germany had the exact same opinion on Czechoslovak Sudetenland.

What does Stepan Bandera have to do with this exactly?

If you don't understand why Poland, a sovereign, democratic country who's people know from history what does it feel like to be invaded and occupied, might support Ukraine, a sovereign, democratic country that is right now being invaded. Then..I don't even know what are we talkin about.

Most of the Ukrainians don't support what Bandera was historically, and those which do, more likely support him in the context of fighting for Ukraine's freedom, not because he was collaborating with Nazis or "savagely destroying Polish women and children".
Just like the John Brown is celebrated in the US for standing up against the institution of slavery, not for Pottawatomie or other shenanigans he did in Kansas back in the day.

The US regularly sends blacks and Latinos to war.

What war would that be ? The US stopped the draft in '72-'73 after Vietnam. We are an all-volunteer professional military. However, let there be no doubt … many of those drafted were of all races and ethnicities. And yes, many were White as well …

From this link

estimates that the American forces in Vietnam consisted of twenty-five percent poor, fifty-five percent working-class, and twenty percent middle-class men. Very few U.S. soldiers came from upper-class families. Many of the men who served in Vietnam were minorities from the nation's inner cities. African Americans accounted for about fourteen percent of the American forces. Many other U.S. soldiers came from small rural towns or farming communities. According to Appy, about two percent of Americans lived in towns with populations smaller than 1,000 in the 1960s. But about eight percent of the U.S. soldiers who died in Vietnam came from towns that size.

From this link

Deaths by Race/Ethnicity in Vietnam

85.6 % were White …

12.4 % were Black …

0.6 % Hispanic …

Do you think they are subhuman?

Do you ?

Many of my friends, comrades, and troops were not only White, but Black, Hispanic, etc. I guarantee they were not sub-human.

Cuprum lies as usual, but I must correct Mrkillerovsky's statement "because he (Bandera) was collaborating with Nazis".

Bandera was never collaborated with Nazis, this is muscovites propaganda myth. He was placed to Nazi death camp as Hitler's personal prisoner and was there during all the war.

At beginning Bandera hoped, that Germany will help to establish Ukrainian sovereignty and independence, but this wasn't in Hitlers plans and therefore he imprisoned Bandera. This hope is presented by muscovites as collaboration.

Sho Boki.
Ok, I stand corrected then.

I must've missed that and, well…you know how it is when something is repeated more than once, haha.

Thank you for correcting me.

mkillerovsky, no, I just believe that people who live on their own territory have the right to speak their own traditional language, elect leaders from among their people and enjoy all the same rights as all other citizens of their state. If they wish, they have the right to form their own national autonomy within their state. And if the state in which they are a part grossly violates their rights and suppresses their legal rights, they have the right to secede from such a state. Don't you agree?
Do you want to support Ukraine? As much as you like. This is your right and your problem. The story develops in a spiral – it will be interesting to look at its new round)))

By the way – what to do with the "Eastern Kresy"? ;-)

Legion 4, I asked this question in the context of a conversation with Dagwood, who for some reason decided that if a citizen has a different nationality or skin color from the titular one, then this exempts him from the obligation to serve his country… So address your message to him – he Apparently he doesn't know this)))

Not what I said, Cuprum.

"I just believe that people who live on their own territory have the right to speak their own traditional language, elect leaders from among their people etc."

Absolutely right. But whattabout if they don't live on their own territory and are unwelcomed foreigner intruders? Like Rossians, who don't have Homeland and even this word in their language.

Like Soviet Union which occupied the three baltic states when the germans were ejected in 1944-45?

The three free countries were forcibly added to the soviet union. They did not get to elect their own leaders or live in their country.